4 ms·

I don’t think we’ll see an (even) split. It’s more likely that all (most) orgs will have safe spaces. Like how all fruit juice is kosher: it makes no differenc

by jpttsn 6y ago

I don’t think we’ll see an (even) split. It’s more likely that all (most) orgs will have safe spaces. Like how all fruit juice is kosher: it makes no difference to people who don’t keep kosher.

prepend 6y ago
I think that will lead to ineffectual orgs as these safe spaces seem to be in conflict with stuff like ejecting RMS. I don’t see myself stop supporting free software, but I’ll want some way to participate to fill that FSF shaped community hole.
logifail 6y ago
> Like how all fruit juice is kosher: it makes no difference to people who don’t keep kosher I don't believe this approach has only positive outcomes. Taleb wrote[0] "It suffices for an intransigent minority –a certain type of intransigent minorities –to reach a minutely small level, say three or four percent of the total population, for the entire population to have to submit to their preferences" To say this leaves me feeling deeply uncomfortable would be putting it mildly. [0] The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
- anaerobicover 6y ago
  This rule only applies when the majority don't care about the outcome, though. Halal meat: small minority cares deeply, majority doesn't care or even notice; therefore it's easiest for all meat to be halal. If the minority preference actually impinged on something the majority wanted, like "no meat at all", then the minority would certainly not have this influence (and there might be conflict). Notice that vegans, a small and passionate minority, have not imposed their preference on society at large. If it's a "dictatorship", it's a very, very soft one.
  - logifail 6y ago
    > This rule only applies when the majority don't care about the outcome "Don't care" or "aren't told" ? > Halal meat: small minority cares deeply, majority doesn't care or even notice I suspect this - as in so many cases - comes down to a labelling issue. Are consumers able to make an informed judgement if they're unable to see what product they're buying? "Leading [UK] supermarkets [said] some of the meat they sell could qualify as halal but is not labelled as such"[0] [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-27402428 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-27402428
    - pessimizer 6y ago
      "Don't care." If there is a large constituency that refuses to eat halal meat, it's just out of hostility towards the minority, not because of any quality of the meat. Your quote is evidence for this.
      - u801e 6y ago
        Not really. What if people thought the method used for slaughtering was inhumane and they preferred a different method. Then the motivation is not based on hostility towards a minority.
    - anaerobicover 6y ago
      This is exactly the point. If no-one even notices without being explicitly told, then it's a completely innocuous distinction from the point of view of the non-halal majority.
      - logifail 6y ago
        > If no-one even notices without being explicitly told Two thought experiments: Would one notice if meat was or wasn't halal if one wasn't explicitly told? Would one notice if fruit juice was or wasn't kosher if one wasn't explicitly told?
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
But one key reason all fruit juice is kosher is that it's pretty easy to get it certified as kosher. You don't have to use any special ingredients or add any special processing steps, and the rabbi won't insist that you personally keep kosher convert to Judaism. That isn't true in this context, where most advocates of "safe spaces" are quite open about the fact that they expect everyone to follow their cultural practices, and that the purpose of a safe space is to help them coordinate this. So pillarization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillarisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillarisation) seems like a more likely outcome.
- jpttsn 6y ago
  Interesting——we’ll find out. So far I see evidence in e.g. the much-discussed switch from “master” to “main” on GitHub and the now omnipresent community codes of conduct. To my mind this is a cheap kosher certification that the vast majority of organizations comply with. Do you have contrary examples of pillarization to date?
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I'd point to the Coinbase kerfluffle as a clear example, where the CEO explicitly staked out a position as a "mission focused company" that wouldn't deal with "societal issues" or "political causes". Whether it's a trend or an outlier... yeah, I'm less sure as I think about it.

by jpttsn 6y ago

prepend 6y ago

I think that will lead to ineffectual orgs as these safe spaces seem to be in conflict with stuff like ejecting RMS. I don’t see myself stop supporting free software, but I’ll want some way to participate to fill that FSF shaped community hole.

logifail 6y ago

> Like how all fruit juice is kosher: it makes no difference to people who don’t keep kosher I don't believe this approach has only positive outcomes. Taleb wrote[0] "It suffices for an intransigent minority –a certain type of intransigent minorities –to reach a minutely small level, say three or four percent of the total population, for the entire population to have to submit to their preferences" To say this leaves me feeling deeply uncomfortable would be putting it mildly. [0] The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

anaerobicover 6y ago
This rule only applies when the majority don't care about the outcome, though. Halal meat: small minority cares deeply, majority doesn't care or even notice; therefore it's easiest for all meat to be halal. If the minority preference actually impinged on something the majority wanted, like "no meat at all", then the minority would certainly not have this influence (and there might be conflict). Notice that vegans, a small and passionate minority, have not imposed their preference on society at large. If it's a "dictatorship", it's a very, very soft one.
- logifail 6y ago
  > This rule only applies when the majority don't care about the outcome "Don't care" or "aren't told" ? > Halal meat: small minority cares deeply, majority doesn't care or even notice I suspect this - as in so many cases - comes down to a labelling issue. Are consumers able to make an informed judgement if they're unable to see what product they're buying? "Leading [UK] supermarkets [said] some of the meat they sell could qualify as halal but is not labelled as such"[0] [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-27402428 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-27402428
  - pessimizer 6y ago
    "Don't care." If there is a large constituency that refuses to eat halal meat, it's just out of hostility towards the minority, not because of any quality of the meat. Your quote is evidence for this.
    - u801e 6y ago
      Not really. What if people thought the method used for slaughtering was inhumane and they preferred a different method. Then the motivation is not based on hostility towards a minority.
  - anaerobicover 6y ago
    This is exactly the point. If no-one even notices without being explicitly told, then it's a completely innocuous distinction from the point of view of the non-halal majority.
    - logifail 6y ago
      > If no-one even notices without being explicitly told Two thought experiments: Would one notice if meat was or wasn't halal if one wasn't explicitly told? Would one notice if fruit juice was or wasn't kosher if one wasn't explicitly told?

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

But one key reason all fruit juice is kosher is that it's pretty easy to get it certified as kosher. You don't have to use any special ingredients or add any special processing steps, and the rabbi won't insist that you personally keep kosher convert to Judaism. That isn't true in this context, where most advocates of "safe spaces" are quite open about the fact that they expect everyone to follow their cultural practices, and that the purpose of a safe space is to help them coordinate this. So pillarization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillarisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillarisation) seems like a more likely outcome.

jpttsn 6y ago
Interesting——we’ll find out. So far I see evidence in e.g. the much-discussed switch from “master” to “main” on GitHub and the now omnipresent community codes of conduct. To my mind this is a cheap kosher certification that the vast majority of organizations comply with. Do you have contrary examples of pillarization to date?
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  I'd point to the Coinbase kerfluffle as a clear example, where the CEO explicitly staked out a position as a "mission focused company" that wouldn't deal with "societal issues" or "political causes". Whether it's a trend or an outlier... yeah, I'm less sure as I think about it.