4 ms·

We are now in an era where copyright laws do not promote the progress of the science and the arts. They merely serve as protectionism from competition and criti

We are now in an era where copyright laws do not promote the progress of the science and the arts. They merely serve as protectionism from competition and criticism.

ta988 6y ago
And patents do the same. Especially software patents. As we are producing faster we should also reduce drastically the lifetime and coverage of copyrights and patents.
- breck 6y ago
  > we should also reduce drastically the lifetime and coverage of copyrights and patents. Agreed. And when you do the math you realize the ideal length === 0.
  - Judgmentality 6y ago
    > And when you do the math you realize the ideal length === 0. Do you honestly believe this? I agree the patent system is broken, but I'm not convinced we should completely abolish it. I am speaking broadly though and not just for software. For software I could see patents as long as a few years making sense, and shorter would be fine. 18 months seems about right as a benchmark to me. A much simpler solution to the patent system is you have to pay exponentially more to keep it as time goes on. This would also solve copyright issues, specifically for Disney and other megacorporations. I realize there is no magic bullet to this, but I actually think the patent system has merit and is worth fixing rather than demolishing.
    - musingsole 6y ago
      I'm very exhausted with trying to treat ideas as property. I'll accept it got us here and appreciate it for that, but it's a broken model that requires massive orchestration to keep in reality. I want something different (and better...though that's the hard part).
    - breck 6y ago
      > Do you honestly believe this? There's nothing I honestly believe in more. #ImaginaryPropertyLaws are a *total* sham. The dramatic expansions [0] in 1976 and 1998 have proven it beyond a reasonable doubt with nothing to show for it except massively increasing inequality [a]. The news? Hasn't improved at all, arguably gotten worse. Pick up a NYTimes from 1871 and compare it to one from today [1]. Today's have color photos, other than that, worse compared to 150 years ago. Scientific papers? Terrible. Look at the reproducibility crisis. Now Elsevier and Wiley and American Chemical Society are suing India to prevent poor kids from accessing SciHub. [2] Medicine? Watson, Crick and Franklin did their famous work in 1953. The healthspan in the USA is *decreasing* [3]. That opioid crisis? Ultimately attributable to USPTO [4]. War on cancer? Started in 1970 and we've gotten our *ass kicked* [5]. The only positive developments have been the massive grunt work public domain research projects funded by US and global taxpayers. Space travel and electric cars? Completely fcking plateaud until Elon Musk came out and said fck patents and kicked everyone's ass [6]. How about computing? Absolutely dominated by TCP/IP, the web, Linux, Git; all public domain or libre software. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act [a] https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/dgJmaIkwy4Xb9CACHYp_J4j18TI=/1400x1050/filters:format(png)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/11839467/Screen_Shot_2018_07_29_at_10.27.09_AM.png https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/dgJmaIkwy4Xb9CACHYp_J4j18TI=... [1] https://www.amazon.com/York-Times-Complete-Front-Pages/dp/0762466596 https://www.amazon.com/York-Times-Complete-Front-Pages/dp/07... [2] https://torrentfreak.com/sci-hub-libgen-face-isp-blocking-in-india-after-publishers-file-high-court-complaint-201227/ https://torrentfreak.com/sci-hub-libgen-face-isp-blocking-in... [3] https://apps.who.int/gho/data/view.main.HALEXv https://apps.who.int/gho/data/view.main.HALEXv [4] https://longbets.org/855/ https://longbets.org/855/ [5] https://www.cancer.gov/about-nci/overview/history/national-cancer-act-1971 https://www.cancer.gov/about-nci/overview/history/national-c... [6] https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150217/06182930052/elon-musk-clarifies-that-teslas-patents-really-are-free-investor-absolutely-freaks-out.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150217/06182930052/elon-...
- varispeed 6y ago
  If only patents covered genuine inventions. If you look at what's getting approved these days, I don't think anyone competent is working in the patent office.
hklgny 6y ago
I mean the guy scraped their site and created a competitor. If I add content to a site, I’m for sure not transitioning ownership to them, but I’m also not giving everyone else in the world permission to take it and use it anywhere they want.
- spacemanmatt 6y ago
  Legal precedent suggests you are probably granting the public access to take it and use it any way they want. Via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiQ_Labs_v._LinkedIn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiQ_Labs_v._LinkedIn > Ultimately, the Ninth Circuit's affirmation of the district court's grant of the preliminary injunction prohibited LinkedIn from denying hiQ access to publicly available data on public LinkedIn users' profiles.
  - MereInterest 6y ago
    Also, a dataset itself is not a creative work and is not entitled to copyright protections. The particular presentation of a dataset may be, but not the dataset itself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._Rural_Telephone_Service_Co https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._R....
    - hklgny 6y ago
      Fascinating, thanks to you both for the links. I’m wondering why companies like Yelp and the realtor association have been so effective at maintaining data ownership if this is the case.
      - pessimizer 6y ago
        Massive efforts using obfuscation, spurious lawsuits, lobbying, and buying up competitors. Only speaking about the NAR, but as a past insider. The NAR only exists because of lobbying to create laws at the state and local that institutionalize themselves as the only legitimate real estate agents, or over-specify the qualifications for being a real estate agent until they are only satisfiable by being a member of the NAR. If all fails, access to MLSes prevents any rebellions below a certain size - the vast majority of Realtors® make no money, and losing MLS access is not an option. In order to create your own MLS, you'd have to pull an Aaron Swartz and get away with it before being cut off (which is probably the main reason why MLSes are a federation rather than a single system), or slightly more realistically get a bunch of no-money making Realtors® on your side and pull an Alexandra Elbakyan with their credentials. The problem with the latter would be that the listings turn over a lot more often than scholarly papers, and you'd have to deal with de-listing.
mhuffman 6y ago
Yeah, I don't know if you have been watching Disney's moves for the last few decades, but we have been at that place for a while now!

We are now in an era where copyright laws do not promote the progress of the science and the arts. They merely serve as protectionism from competition and criticism.

ta988 6y ago

And patents do the same. Especially software patents. As we are producing faster we should also reduce drastically the lifetime and coverage of copyrights and patents.

breck 6y ago
> we should also reduce drastically the lifetime and coverage of copyrights and patents. Agreed. And when you do the math you realize the ideal length === 0.
- Judgmentality 6y ago
  > And when you do the math you realize the ideal length === 0. Do you honestly believe this? I agree the patent system is broken, but I'm not convinced we should completely abolish it. I am speaking broadly though and not just for software. For software I could see patents as long as a few years making sense, and shorter would be fine. 18 months seems about right as a benchmark to me. A much simpler solution to the patent system is you have to pay exponentially more to keep it as time goes on. This would also solve copyright issues, specifically for Disney and other megacorporations. I realize there is no magic bullet to this, but I actually think the patent system has merit and is worth fixing rather than demolishing.
  - musingsole 6y ago
    I'm very exhausted with trying to treat ideas as property. I'll accept it got us here and appreciate it for that, but it's a broken model that requires massive orchestration to keep in reality. I want something different (and better...though that's the hard part).
  - breck 6y ago
    > Do you honestly believe this? There's nothing I honestly believe in more. #ImaginaryPropertyLaws are a *total* sham. The dramatic expansions [0] in 1976 and 1998 have proven it beyond a reasonable doubt with nothing to show for it except massively increasing inequality [a]. The news? Hasn't improved at all, arguably gotten worse. Pick up a NYTimes from 1871 and compare it to one from today [1]. Today's have color photos, other than that, worse compared to 150 years ago. Scientific papers? Terrible. Look at the reproducibility crisis. Now Elsevier and Wiley and American Chemical Society are suing India to prevent poor kids from accessing SciHub. [2] Medicine? Watson, Crick and Franklin did their famous work in 1953. The healthspan in the USA is *decreasing* [3]. That opioid crisis? Ultimately attributable to USPTO [4]. War on cancer? Started in 1970 and we've gotten our *ass kicked* [5]. The only positive developments have been the massive grunt work public domain research projects funded by US and global taxpayers. Space travel and electric cars? Completely fcking plateaud until Elon Musk came out and said fck patents and kicked everyone's ass [6]. How about computing? Absolutely dominated by TCP/IP, the web, Linux, Git; all public domain or libre software. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act [a] https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/dgJmaIkwy4Xb9CACHYp_J4j18TI=/1400x1050/filters:format(png)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/11839467/Screen_Shot_2018_07_29_at_10.27.09_AM.png https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/dgJmaIkwy4Xb9CACHYp_J4j18TI=... [1] https://www.amazon.com/York-Times-Complete-Front-Pages/dp/0762466596 https://www.amazon.com/York-Times-Complete-Front-Pages/dp/07... [2] https://torrentfreak.com/sci-hub-libgen-face-isp-blocking-in-india-after-publishers-file-high-court-complaint-201227/ https://torrentfreak.com/sci-hub-libgen-face-isp-blocking-in... [3] https://apps.who.int/gho/data/view.main.HALEXv https://apps.who.int/gho/data/view.main.HALEXv [4] https://longbets.org/855/ https://longbets.org/855/ [5] https://www.cancer.gov/about-nci/overview/history/national-cancer-act-1971 https://www.cancer.gov/about-nci/overview/history/national-c... [6] https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150217/06182930052/elon-musk-clarifies-that-teslas-patents-really-are-free-investor-absolutely-freaks-out.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150217/06182930052/elon-...
varispeed 6y ago
If only patents covered genuine inventions. If you look at what's getting approved these days, I don't think anyone competent is working in the patent office.

hklgny 6y ago

I mean the guy scraped their site and created a competitor. If I add content to a site, I’m for sure not transitioning ownership to them, but I’m also not giving everyone else in the world permission to take it and use it anywhere they want.

spacemanmatt 6y ago
Legal precedent suggests you are probably granting the public access to take it and use it any way they want. Via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiQ_Labs_v._LinkedIn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiQ_Labs_v._LinkedIn > Ultimately, the Ninth Circuit's affirmation of the district court's grant of the preliminary injunction prohibited LinkedIn from denying hiQ access to publicly available data on public LinkedIn users' profiles.
- MereInterest 6y ago
  Also, a dataset itself is not a creative work and is not entitled to copyright protections. The particular presentation of a dataset may be, but not the dataset itself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._Rural_Telephone_Service_Co https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._R....
  - hklgny 6y ago
    Fascinating, thanks to you both for the links. I’m wondering why companies like Yelp and the realtor association have been so effective at maintaining data ownership if this is the case.
    - pessimizer 6y ago
      Massive efforts using obfuscation, spurious lawsuits, lobbying, and buying up competitors. Only speaking about the NAR, but as a past insider. The NAR only exists because of lobbying to create laws at the state and local that institutionalize themselves as the only legitimate real estate agents, or over-specify the qualifications for being a real estate agent until they are only satisfiable by being a member of the NAR. If all fails, access to MLSes prevents any rebellions below a certain size - the vast majority of Realtors® make no money, and losing MLS access is not an option. In order to create your own MLS, you'd have to pull an Aaron Swartz and get away with it before being cut off (which is probably the main reason why MLSes are a federation rather than a single system), or slightly more realistically get a bunch of no-money making Realtors® on your side and pull an Alexandra Elbakyan with their credentials. The problem with the latter would be that the listings turn over a lot more often than scholarly papers, and you'd have to deal with de-listing.

mhuffman 6y ago

Yeah, I don't know if you have been watching Disney's moves for the last few decades, but we have been at that place for a while now!