10 ms·

Nike Statement on Xinjiang

106 points by lawrenceyan 6y ago

Flatcircle 6y ago
This is probably gonna get messy once the top of CCP see this.
- ComputerGuru 6y ago
  They already did and it already has. (This isn’t new.)
- ohazi 6y ago
  This wouldn't have been published unless that was an explicit goal. But Nike's strategy doesn't seem particularly effective, and the outcome is predictable. Top CCP brass will be outraged at the insinuation that anything disreputable is going on, will drone on about "how dare Nike try to shame the honorable reputation of the virtuous and hard-working and well-meaning and morally super great Chinese people," will probably accuse Nike of anti-Chinese racism, and then will try to "Cancel Nike" within China and in their New Silk Road sphere of influence (i.e. Economic Sanctions with Chinese Characteristics). You can't call out a bully that obsesses over appearances and feigns outrage like this. If you've ever had the misfortune of working with someone like this, you'll know that calling bullshit on them doesn't work. They'll take offense, they'll throw a fit, they'll sabotage and self destruct. It's juvenile and exhausting, but they just can't accept that you're not buying their crap. It's the same story here. Antagonizing doesn't work. We need to find another way to exert pressure on China and the CCP that doesn't immediately trigger this "embarrassed and outraged" response. At work, you might pretend to be this bully's friend, feed them a different idea, convince them that it's their idea, let them champion this idea, make a big show of everybody praising them for how brilliant it is, etc. (and then look for a new job, because that's fucking exhausting too). The stakes are really high here. A bully like this at work that has power and can't be fired can destroy the company, but this bully has nukes and wants to invade Taiwan. If they really start to feel like the entire world is trying to shame them, it's going to end in disaster.
  - indigochill 6y ago
    > ...you might pretend to be this bully's friend, feed them a different idea, convince them that it's their idea... I thought I'd read somewhere (but can't find the source now) that around the Cold War or thereabouts, trade with China was seen as a way of "exporting capitalism" to undermine support for communism there. If so, that... hasn't worked. I'm not convinced the west actually has any leverage on China. They own the US's debt, they have access to rare earth metals necessary for computer manufacture, and they're the backbone of worldwide manufacturing. Any pressure applied (trade sanctions?) will just come back the other direction (oh no, actually we need that trade to maintain our way of life).
    - dnautics 6y ago
      > They own the US's debt Currently the world leader in US debt holding is not china, but japan. > actually we need that trade to maintain our way of life Currently the number 1 trading partner with the US is Mexico, not china. The US economy is overwhelmingly domestic, too with something like 10% via foreign trade. And china's labor costs no longer make it competitive in terms of "making the average us resident's prices low". The place that will get screwed is europe, which DOES do a ton of trade with China, as we will see in the upcoming months with the closure of the suez (most us trade does not use the suez, only about 10% of oil from saudia arabia, and most us oil production has shifted to domestic, IIRC it's like 5% foreign or something like that)
    - ohazi 6y ago
      > If so, that... hasn't worked. Yeah, I think the "pretend you're on their side" strategy might work once or twice before they're onto you, so if you can't get them permanently out of the way by then, you're finished. > I'm not convinced the west actually has any leverage on China. Unfortunately, I think I agree. I'm not convinced the debt thing matters very much, but as things stand, we are hosed without China's manufacturing base, and double plus hosed if TSMC is captured or destroyed as a result of a Taiwan attack.
    - NicoJuicy 6y ago
      China has been chosen as the manufacturer of the western world. While it's a big thing they need, I'm not convinced that it is impossible to shift a lot of that influence to India. Who would probably make a better partner ( not sure). Other than that, I don't see much options.
slashdot2008 6y ago
How can anyone doing business with China look the other way on Xinjiang simply by saying "our factory isn't there". Every one of us buying goods made in China is enabling their behaviour by showing that we would rather make more money or would rather have cheaper electronics and plastic crap than standing up for the human rights of the people in Xinjiang who are the focus of the CCPs genocide. I think it is a pivotal moment for this generation to show what our principles are, if we have any. As a Canadian I wish our Prime Minister Justin Trudeau would more directly speak out against China's poor behaviour and offer some temporary support for businesses that would be impacted. Sell the grain and pork to someone else for less and I would gladly see part of my tax dollars go to make up the loss for the Canadian farmers. edit: responses with counter points to help me understand your point of view, or if I am out of line, would be more helpful than downvotes.
- throwawayfire 6y ago
  > I think it is a pivotal moment for this generation to show what our principles are, if we have any. It's already known that this (political) generation doesn't have these principles. Government contracts rarely consider anything beyond the cheapest offer. Corporations are obligated to maximise their profit above all other considerations. It's the West's (including Canada's) morals that have got us here - we simply export our bad behaviour to other countries, so that we don't have to see it. Overall, nobody is going to stop importing clothes made in China, because there isn't sufficient industry elsewhere in the world. We closed it, and exported it to China, because it was cheaper.
  - slashdot2008 6y ago
    I think of my grandfathers, one who was in world war 1 and 2, and the other in world war 2, and their whole generation marching off to war to put their lives on the line to stand up for what is right, and I can't imagine anybody I know doing that unless they joined the military out of high school because they didn't have any better options. edit: I can't reply for some reason. (oh it's because parent is flagged). If there was resistance in Canada to going to war in world war 1 and 2 it isn't part of the history that is taught to us. I imagine since there was no draft in Canada only the willing went.
sthnblllII 6y ago
Does anyone remember when the US backed Sunni extremists in Afghanistan to counter Soviet influence in the region? http://www.historyisnowmagazine.com/blog/2021/3/7/how-america-supported-the-anti-soviet-mujahideen-rebels-in-1980s-afghanistan http://www.historyisnowmagazine.com/blog/2021/3/7/how-americ... Or when the US backed Sunni extremists in Syria to destabilize Bashar Al Assad and provoke regime change? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore Or when the US provided air support for Sunni extremists in Libya (the "No Fly Zone") to topple the government of Colonel Ghadafi? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Kunming_attack https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Kunming_attack Why is the US media so concerned with Uygur rights and so unconcerned with Palestinian rights? https://ifamericansknew.org/ https://ifamericansknew.org/
- lucian1900 6y ago
  Particularly since ETIM, the terrorist group responsible for a string of deadly attacks in China, has links to both Saudi Arabia and the NED (a CIA front). The same group sent thousands of fighters to Syria to fight on the side of ISIS.
  - sthnblllII 6y ago
    Correct. To be clear, I don't support genocide (as if that needs to be said) but the US media demonization of China is obviously geopolitical motivated and if its as successful at convincing the American public as Iraq's "WMDs" were, it could eventually be used as a causus beli.
    - redisman 6y ago
      The US doesn't want war with China. Especially not for the human rights of muslims. US and China both reap the majority of the rewards of the current system of trade. Why would either country want hell on earth as opposed to the status quo?
      - lucian1900 6y ago
RyanShook 6y ago
It’s easy to make excuses like “we don’t source from the forced labor part of the country” or “the whole world’s supply chain is tied to China.” Both statements are true but when we consider how we’re indirectly supporting a country that is actively committing crimes against humanity it has to make us stop and do some serious soul searching. When it was obvious China’s wages were below minimum wage in the US I said that’s free markets at work. But what’s happening in Xinjiang isn’t anywhere close to free market labor. It’s the opposite and I keep trying to but can’t think of any excuse for it.
- ithkuil 6y ago
  The danger of soul searching is that you might find none
- onethought 6y ago
  Much like prison labour in the US right? But no one seems to care about that.
- Natsu 6y ago
  That's the thing, it is hard to disengage. I know that the China sanctions seem to have helped move that along economically, but it's hard to even know where every little thing is sourced from and so much is done in China. But I do know that, at least for my shoes, they were made by Tim & Mary, not by someone toiling in a factory with nets to keep them from jumping out the window. It's not much, but it's something.
- chadcmulligan 6y ago
  There's the Capitalist peace theory - countries with strong trade won't fight each other - its bad for business. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_peace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_peace
- fspeech 6y ago
  Nike should clarify their statement so they don't run afoul of anti-discrimination laws. One consequence of their action may be that their suppliers refuse to hire any ethnic minorities, as shown in their statement.
onethought 6y ago
Do people not see this as agg-prop? Like are we really buying into an issue that’s been around in the open since 2012 - suddenly it’s unbearable and how can we do business with evil folk like this!? This just so happens to come up during US-China talks. The US is by no means clean here either... Frustrating that we all fall for these clearly geopolitical driven narratives
Leary 6y ago
2020: Nike cancelled by Trump supporters 2021: Nike cancelled by China
mkolodny 6y ago
In case anyone's not aware of what's happening in Xinjiang, this is a great Last Week Tonight episode about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17oCQakzIl8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17oCQakzIl8
- hungryhobo 6y ago
  Here is also a great first hand resource: https://youtu.be/4N385vKhXYQ https://youtu.be/4N385vKhXYQ
88840-8855 6y ago
Skechers report - no forced labour in Xinjiang MUJI - no forced labour in Xinjiang nike - no forced labour in Xinjiang adidas - no forced labour in Xinjiang At the same time this whole Xinjiang stuff reminds me of dozens of destibalization operations by the Americans in countless contries. I went to Hong Kong in 2019 during the protests to join them and to see with my own eyes what was going on. I met with the protesters and spoke with many of them. It was NOT the same what the media was reporting here. Once covid is over, I will travel to Xinjiang and also see for myself, because I started to believe that this entire anti-China movement is a very smart way of setting up of a new cold war.
- paulryanrogers 6y ago
  Not sure I'd trust companies with a vested interest in denial to communicate objective truth.
  - hungryhobo 6y ago
    Could it be that the US is the one with vested interest?
    - katbyte 6y ago
      _everyone_ involved has vested interest, and china isn't exactly allowing anyone to go take a look?
      - dj_gitmo 6y ago
        China has not restricted access to Xinjiang. You can visit if you like. Most western visitors report that security is high in some areas, but foreigners are allowed to visit. Just walking around won't necessarily tell you the whole story obviously, but the notion that you can't visit is false. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-xinjiang/wary-of-xinjiang-backlash-china-invites-waves-of-diplomats-to-visit-idUSKCN1QA0XX https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-xinjiang/wary-of-xi... Edit: I searched "visit Xinjiang" and found this from 2021 https://www.lostwithpurpose.com/why-we-didnt-like-traveling-in-xinjiang-china/ https://www.lostwithpurpose.com/why-we-didnt-like-traveling-...
heavyset_go 6y ago
Strange how these billion dollar companies keep getting tricked into innocently profiting from slave labor. It seems to me like the only way for a company to know if forced labor is used in the production of the goods they sell is for someone else to catch them red-handed.
- mangix 6y ago
  Why do you think they're getting tricked?
  - client4 6y ago
    The previous comment is thinly veiled sarcasm.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    Because of how sorry they are each time they get caught.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dan-robertson 6y ago
I guess the chauvinists in China will have to buy Nkie products instead.
drumhead 6y ago
Its time to make a choice between more profits or taking a stand against a regime that uses slave labour, forcible sterlization of women, mass surveilance, "re-education". We'll see how many companies chose the former option and the type of reaction they get in the rest of the world for it. It will color the actions of other repressive regimes. When they post a rainbow flag to support Pride or make a statement of support for MeToo or BLM, you feel they're doing something they think will have no effect on them except score them virtue points, but when it come to doing something that has a tangible impact on profits, well...the inaction is noticable.

106 points by lawrenceyan 6y ago

Flatcircle 6y ago

This is probably gonna get messy once the top of CCP see this.

ComputerGuru 6y ago
They already did and it already has. (This isn’t new.)
ohazi 6y ago
This wouldn't have been published unless that was an explicit goal. But Nike's strategy doesn't seem particularly effective, and the outcome is predictable. Top CCP brass will be outraged at the insinuation that anything disreputable is going on, will drone on about "how dare Nike try to shame the honorable reputation of the virtuous and hard-working and well-meaning and morally super great Chinese people," will probably accuse Nike of anti-Chinese racism, and then will try to "Cancel Nike" within China and in their New Silk Road sphere of influence (i.e. Economic Sanctions with Chinese Characteristics). You can't call out a bully that obsesses over appearances and feigns outrage like this. If you've ever had the misfortune of working with someone like this, you'll know that calling bullshit on them doesn't work. They'll take offense, they'll throw a fit, they'll sabotage and self destruct. It's juvenile and exhausting, but they just can't accept that you're not buying their crap. It's the same story here. Antagonizing doesn't work. We need to find another way to exert pressure on China and the CCP that doesn't immediately trigger this "embarrassed and outraged" response. At work, you might pretend to be this bully's friend, feed them a different idea, convince them that it's their idea, let them champion this idea, make a big show of everybody praising them for how brilliant it is, etc. (and then look for a new job, because that's fucking exhausting too). The stakes are really high here. A bully like this at work that has power and can't be fired can destroy the company, but this bully has nukes and wants to invade Taiwan. If they really start to feel like the entire world is trying to shame them, it's going to end in disaster.
- indigochill 6y ago
  > ...you might pretend to be this bully's friend, feed them a different idea, convince them that it's their idea... I thought I'd read somewhere (but can't find the source now) that around the Cold War or thereabouts, trade with China was seen as a way of "exporting capitalism" to undermine support for communism there. If so, that... hasn't worked. I'm not convinced the west actually has any leverage on China. They own the US's debt, they have access to rare earth metals necessary for computer manufacture, and they're the backbone of worldwide manufacturing. Any pressure applied (trade sanctions?) will just come back the other direction (oh no, actually we need that trade to maintain our way of life).
  - dnautics 6y ago
    > They own the US's debt Currently the world leader in US debt holding is not china, but japan. > actually we need that trade to maintain our way of life Currently the number 1 trading partner with the US is Mexico, not china. The US economy is overwhelmingly domestic, too with something like 10% via foreign trade. And china's labor costs no longer make it competitive in terms of "making the average us resident's prices low". The place that will get screwed is europe, which DOES do a ton of trade with China, as we will see in the upcoming months with the closure of the suez (most us trade does not use the suez, only about 10% of oil from saudia arabia, and most us oil production has shifted to domestic, IIRC it's like 5% foreign or something like that)
  - ohazi 6y ago
    > If so, that... hasn't worked. Yeah, I think the "pretend you're on their side" strategy might work once or twice before they're onto you, so if you can't get them permanently out of the way by then, you're finished. > I'm not convinced the west actually has any leverage on China. Unfortunately, I think I agree. I'm not convinced the debt thing matters very much, but as things stand, we are hosed without China's manufacturing base, and double plus hosed if TSMC is captured or destroyed as a result of a Taiwan attack.
  - NicoJuicy 6y ago
    China has been chosen as the manufacturer of the western world. While it's a big thing they need, I'm not convinced that it is impossible to shift a lot of that influence to India. Who would probably make a better partner ( not sure). Other than that, I don't see much options.

slashdot2008 6y ago

How can anyone doing business with China look the other way on Xinjiang simply by saying "our factory isn't there". Every one of us buying goods made in China is enabling their behaviour by showing that we would rather make more money or would rather have cheaper electronics and plastic crap than standing up for the human rights of the people in Xinjiang who are the focus of the CCPs genocide. I think it is a pivotal moment for this generation to show what our principles are, if we have any. As a Canadian I wish our Prime Minister Justin Trudeau would more directly speak out against China's poor behaviour and offer some temporary support for businesses that would be impacted. Sell the grain and pork to someone else for less and I would gladly see part of my tax dollars go to make up the loss for the Canadian farmers. edit: responses with counter points to help me understand your point of view, or if I am out of line, would be more helpful than downvotes.

throwawayfire 6y ago
> I think it is a pivotal moment for this generation to show what our principles are, if we have any. It's already known that this (political) generation doesn't have these principles. Government contracts rarely consider anything beyond the cheapest offer. Corporations are obligated to maximise their profit above all other considerations. It's the West's (including Canada's) morals that have got us here - we simply export our bad behaviour to other countries, so that we don't have to see it. Overall, nobody is going to stop importing clothes made in China, because there isn't sufficient industry elsewhere in the world. We closed it, and exported it to China, because it was cheaper.
- slashdot2008 6y ago
  I think of my grandfathers, one who was in world war 1 and 2, and the other in world war 2, and their whole generation marching off to war to put their lives on the line to stand up for what is right, and I can't imagine anybody I know doing that unless they joined the military out of high school because they didn't have any better options. edit: I can't reply for some reason. (oh it's because parent is flagged). If there was resistance in Canada to going to war in world war 1 and 2 it isn't part of the history that is taught to us. I imagine since there was no draft in Canada only the willing went.

sthnblllII 6y ago

Does anyone remember when the US backed Sunni extremists in Afghanistan to counter Soviet influence in the region? http://www.historyisnowmagazine.com/blog/2021/3/7/how-america-supported-the-anti-soviet-mujahideen-rebels-in-1980s-afghanistan http://www.historyisnowmagazine.com/blog/2021/3/7/how-americ... Or when the US backed Sunni extremists in Syria to destabilize Bashar Al Assad and provoke regime change? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore Or when the US provided air support for Sunni extremists in Libya (the "No Fly Zone") to topple the government of Colonel Ghadafi? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Kunming_attack https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Kunming_attack Why is the US media so concerned with Uygur rights and so unconcerned with Palestinian rights? https://ifamericansknew.org/ https://ifamericansknew.org/

lucian1900 6y ago
Particularly since ETIM, the terrorist group responsible for a string of deadly attacks in China, has links to both Saudi Arabia and the NED (a CIA front). The same group sent thousands of fighters to Syria to fight on the side of ISIS.
- sthnblllII 6y ago
  Correct. To be clear, I don't support genocide (as if that needs to be said) but the US media demonization of China is obviously geopolitical motivated and if its as successful at convincing the American public as Iraq's "WMDs" were, it could eventually be used as a causus beli.
  - redisman 6y ago
    The US doesn't want war with China. Especially not for the human rights of muslims. US and China both reap the majority of the rewards of the current system of trade. Why would either country want hell on earth as opposed to the status quo?
    - lucian1900 6y ago

RyanShook 6y ago

It’s easy to make excuses like “we don’t source from the forced labor part of the country” or “the whole world’s supply chain is tied to China.” Both statements are true but when we consider how we’re indirectly supporting a country that is actively committing crimes against humanity it has to make us stop and do some serious soul searching. When it was obvious China’s wages were below minimum wage in the US I said that’s free markets at work. But what’s happening in Xinjiang isn’t anywhere close to free market labor. It’s the opposite and I keep trying to but can’t think of any excuse for it.

ithkuil 6y ago
The danger of soul searching is that you might find none
onethought 6y ago
Much like prison labour in the US right? But no one seems to care about that.
Natsu 6y ago
That's the thing, it is hard to disengage. I know that the China sanctions seem to have helped move that along economically, but it's hard to even know where every little thing is sourced from and so much is done in China. But I do know that, at least for my shoes, they were made by Tim & Mary, not by someone toiling in a factory with nets to keep them from jumping out the window. It's not much, but it's something.
chadcmulligan 6y ago
There's the Capitalist peace theory - countries with strong trade won't fight each other - its bad for business. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_peace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_peace
fspeech 6y ago
Nike should clarify their statement so they don't run afoul of anti-discrimination laws. One consequence of their action may be that their suppliers refuse to hire any ethnic minorities, as shown in their statement.

onethought 6y ago

Do people not see this as agg-prop? Like are we really buying into an issue that’s been around in the open since 2012 - suddenly it’s unbearable and how can we do business with evil folk like this!? This just so happens to come up during US-China talks. The US is by no means clean here either... Frustrating that we all fall for these clearly geopolitical driven narratives

Leary 6y ago

2020: Nike cancelled by Trump supporters 2021: Nike cancelled by China

mkolodny 6y ago

In case anyone's not aware of what's happening in Xinjiang, this is a great Last Week Tonight episode about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17oCQakzIl8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17oCQakzIl8

hungryhobo 6y ago
Here is also a great first hand resource: https://youtu.be/4N385vKhXYQ https://youtu.be/4N385vKhXYQ

88840-8855 6y ago

Skechers report - no forced labour in Xinjiang MUJI - no forced labour in Xinjiang nike - no forced labour in Xinjiang adidas - no forced labour in Xinjiang At the same time this whole Xinjiang stuff reminds me of dozens of destibalization operations by the Americans in countless contries. I went to Hong Kong in 2019 during the protests to join them and to see with my own eyes what was going on. I met with the protesters and spoke with many of them. It was NOT the same what the media was reporting here. Once covid is over, I will travel to Xinjiang and also see for myself, because I started to believe that this entire anti-China movement is a very smart way of setting up of a new cold war.

paulryanrogers 6y ago
Not sure I'd trust companies with a vested interest in denial to communicate objective truth.
- hungryhobo 6y ago
  Could it be that the US is the one with vested interest?
  - katbyte 6y ago
    _everyone_ involved has vested interest, and china isn't exactly allowing anyone to go take a look?
    - dj_gitmo 6y ago
      China has not restricted access to Xinjiang. You can visit if you like. Most western visitors report that security is high in some areas, but foreigners are allowed to visit. Just walking around won't necessarily tell you the whole story obviously, but the notion that you can't visit is false. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-xinjiang/wary-of-xinjiang-backlash-china-invites-waves-of-diplomats-to-visit-idUSKCN1QA0XX https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-xinjiang/wary-of-xi... Edit: I searched "visit Xinjiang" and found this from 2021 https://www.lostwithpurpose.com/why-we-didnt-like-traveling-in-xinjiang-china/ https://www.lostwithpurpose.com/why-we-didnt-like-traveling-...

heavyset_go 6y ago

Strange how these billion dollar companies keep getting tricked into innocently profiting from slave labor. It seems to me like the only way for a company to know if forced labor is used in the production of the goods they sell is for someone else to catch them red-handed.

mangix 6y ago
Why do you think they're getting tricked?
- client4 6y ago
  The previous comment is thinly veiled sarcasm.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  Because of how sorry they are each time they get caught.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

dan-robertson 6y ago

I guess the chauvinists in China will have to buy Nkie products instead.

drumhead 6y ago

Its time to make a choice between more profits or taking a stand against a regime that uses slave labour, forcible sterlization of women, mass surveilance, "re-education". We'll see how many companies chose the former option and the type of reaction they get in the rest of the world for it. It will color the actions of other repressive regimes. When they post a rainbow flag to support Pride or make a statement of support for MeToo or BLM, you feel they're doing something they think will have no effect on them except score them virtue points, but when it come to doing something that has a tangible impact on profits, well...the inaction is noticable.