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How was that a coup? It was a disorganized powerless group of people who happened to make it into the capitol because of lax security. At best this is somethin

How was that a coup? It was a disorganized powerless group of people who happened to make it into the capitol because of lax security. At best this is something like the Reichstagsbrand. Rationally a completely inconsequential event, but politically exploited for another round of increasing totalitarianism.

danjac 6y ago
It's more in common with Guy Fawkes' attempt to blow up parliament, or the failed Beer Hall putsch in 1923. Both were attempted but poorly organized coups to overthrow the government of the day. Yes it failed, yes it was poorly organized, but that doesn't matter. If I try to hold up a bank using a water pistol instead of a gun while dressed as a clown I'm still attempting a bank robbery.
- roenxi 6y ago
  The obituary would read "danjac, village idiot" rather than "danjac, bank robber". At some point, possibly the moment you draw the water pistol, you aren't making a serious go of it. If the standard is that low then the US has coups semi-regularly. As in, maybe annually. It should realistically be more often than that, except most violent protesters protest government actions by targeting random businesses rather than the government (eg, Occupy Wall-street as opposed to Occupy the Offices of the People Handing Out The Bailouts).
  - loopz 6y ago
    Not when it concerns top leaders in charge and failure to act responsibly and constitutionally.
MrMan 6y ago
Organized dry run by paramilitaries, also accurately describes it.
ben_w 6y ago
"""Approximately two thousand Nazis marched on the [building] in the city centre, but were confronted by a police cordon, which resulted in the deaths of 16 Nazi Party members and four police officers.""" That’s a description of the Beer Hall Putsch, just for comparison to the events in Washington. There is plenty of evidence that the people who invaded congress wanted to overthrow the election results and keep Trump as President, that many refused to believe that Trump had even lost, and some appeared to be “heavily armed” (though given America’s gun fetish, I don’t know what that means): https://apnews.com/article/us-capitol-trump-supporters-1806ea8dc15a2c04f2a68acd6b55cace https://apnews.com/article/us-capitol-trump-supporters-1806e...
- harry8 6y ago
  None of those idiots had firearms. On American standards is this heavily armed? None brought cable ties with them but yeah that's harder for people to believe because they saw photos of a rioter idiot carrying them that he picked up from where the police left them unattended inside the Capitol building. Who is more dangerous to freedom. Those rioting idiots who broke existing law and will all go to jail or those making far more of their threat then is remotely reasonable to change law and remove rights? Heavily armed. I believed that in the aftermath too. Also believed weapons of mass destruction at the time. Pretty angry about both when the evidence came in and it turned out to be deliberate lies to sway public opinion to do unpopular and terrible things.
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    > None of those idiots had firearms. Not with-in the Capital building, but many were carrying outside (in violation of DC law AFAICT): > Video footage reviewed by prosecutors also suggests Munchel and his mother carried weapons while in Washington, DC — despite the district's strict gun laws — and abandoned them only before they got into the building. > "We're going straight to federal prison if we go in there with weapons," Eisenhart told Munchel before they entered the Capitol building, according to prosecutors. > "We can put 'em in the backpacks," Eisenhart then said, before stashing "tactical bags" outside the building, according to prosecutors. * https://www.insider.com/zip-tie-guy-capitol-riot-plastic-handcuffs-police-prosecutors-2021-1 https://www.insider.com/zip-tie-guy-capitol-riot-plastic-han... > None brought cable ties with them […] At least one seems to have: > Brock was arrested Sunday in Texas after being photographed on the Senate floor during the deadly riot wearing a helmet and heavy vest and carrying plastic zip-tie handcuffs. The 53-year-old is charged with knowingly entering or remaining in a restricted building or grounds without lawful authority, and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds. * https://apnews.com/article/capitol-siege-fort-worth-texas-e13a0ee09d543415d46c3f34a02f444b https://apnews.com/article/capitol-siege-fort-worth-texas-e1... I am reminded of Hanlon's Razor: never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor I think a lot of the mob were useful idiots and are being manipulated via populism by those with an actual clue. Georgia just passed the voter restrictions under the popular 'support' of these folks.
austhrow743 6y ago
Incompetently attempting to do something is attempting to do something.
ramphastidae 6y ago
How convenient that you ignore what was happening the day of the coup: the confirmation of a new President. There was literally a mass rally, hours before the event, where the President and his cronies whipped a mob into a frenzy with lies about fraudulent voting systems and conspiracies to steal the election as the culmination of MONTHS of similar disinformation. They encouraged supporters to take Congress via “trial by combat” in order to prevent the legally elected President from being confirmed. An attempt to block the legal transfer of power in order to illegally maintain your own is clearly an attempt to overthrow a legitimate government: a coup.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- leereeves 6y ago
  They clearly meant to disrupt that confirmation in an act of protest, but here's how we know it was not a coup: They left their weapons outside the Capitol. People planning to overthrow a government do not leave their weapons at the door. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26602074 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26602074
  - loopz 6y ago
    People were clearly misled. So intention is on the leadership that misled them. That intent was to change the election outcome by means outside the constitution and Law, under coercion and threat of violence.
  - ramphastidae 6y ago
    So because two rioters left their guns at home, it wasn’t a coup? Keep moving those goalposts, buddy.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
throw0101a 6y ago
Attempting to overthrow the government is probably at least an insurrection. The fact that Trump told/signalled people to go to the US Capital building can be construed as giving direction, would be put it under the "self-coup" (autogolpe) category: > Naunihal Singh of the U.S. Naval War College and author of Seizing Power: The Strategic Logic of Military Coups, wrote that the attack on the Capitol was "an insurrection, a violent uprising against the government" and "sedition" but not a coup because Trump did not order the military "to seize power on his behalf".[461][462] The Coup D'état Project of the Cline Center for Advanced Social Research at the University of Illinois, which tracks coups and coup attempts globally, classified the attack on the Capitol as an "attempted dissident coup" which the center defines as an unsuccessful coup attempt "initiated by a small group of discontents" such as "ex-military leaders, religious leaders, former government leaders, members of a legislature/parliament, and civilians" (but not police or the military). The Cline Center stated that the "organized, illegal attempt to intervene in the presidential transition" by displacing Congress met this definition.[463][464] Some political scientists identified the attack as an attempted self-coup, in which the head of government attempts to strong-arm the other branches of government to entrench power.[465] Academic Fiona Hill, a former member of Trump's National Security Council, described the attack, and Trump's actions in the months leading up to it, as an attempted self-coup.[466] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol#Terminology_used_to_refer_to_event https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_St...

danjac 6y ago

It's more in common with Guy Fawkes' attempt to blow up parliament, or the failed Beer Hall putsch in 1923. Both were attempted but poorly organized coups to overthrow the government of the day. Yes it failed, yes it was poorly organized, but that doesn't matter. If I try to hold up a bank using a water pistol instead of a gun while dressed as a clown I'm still attempting a bank robbery.

roenxi 6y ago
The obituary would read "danjac, village idiot" rather than "danjac, bank robber". At some point, possibly the moment you draw the water pistol, you aren't making a serious go of it. If the standard is that low then the US has coups semi-regularly. As in, maybe annually. It should realistically be more often than that, except most violent protesters protest government actions by targeting random businesses rather than the government (eg, Occupy Wall-street as opposed to Occupy the Offices of the People Handing Out The Bailouts).
- loopz 6y ago
  Not when it concerns top leaders in charge and failure to act responsibly and constitutionally.

MrMan 6y ago

Organized dry run by paramilitaries, also accurately describes it.

ben_w 6y ago

"""Approximately two thousand Nazis marched on the [building] in the city centre, but were confronted by a police cordon, which resulted in the deaths of 16 Nazi Party members and four police officers.""" That’s a description of the Beer Hall Putsch, just for comparison to the events in Washington. There is plenty of evidence that the people who invaded congress wanted to overthrow the election results and keep Trump as President, that many refused to believe that Trump had even lost, and some appeared to be “heavily armed” (though given America’s gun fetish, I don’t know what that means): https://apnews.com/article/us-capitol-trump-supporters-1806ea8dc15a2c04f2a68acd6b55cace https://apnews.com/article/us-capitol-trump-supporters-1806e...

harry8 6y ago
None of those idiots had firearms. On American standards is this heavily armed? None brought cable ties with them but yeah that's harder for people to believe because they saw photos of a rioter idiot carrying them that he picked up from where the police left them unattended inside the Capitol building. Who is more dangerous to freedom. Those rioting idiots who broke existing law and will all go to jail or those making far more of their threat then is remotely reasonable to change law and remove rights? Heavily armed. I believed that in the aftermath too. Also believed weapons of mass destruction at the time. Pretty angry about both when the evidence came in and it turned out to be deliberate lies to sway public opinion to do unpopular and terrible things.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > None of those idiots had firearms. Not with-in the Capital building, but many were carrying outside (in violation of DC law AFAICT): > Video footage reviewed by prosecutors also suggests Munchel and his mother carried weapons while in Washington, DC — despite the district's strict gun laws — and abandoned them only before they got into the building. > "We're going straight to federal prison if we go in there with weapons," Eisenhart told Munchel before they entered the Capitol building, according to prosecutors. > "We can put 'em in the backpacks," Eisenhart then said, before stashing "tactical bags" outside the building, according to prosecutors. * https://www.insider.com/zip-tie-guy-capitol-riot-plastic-handcuffs-police-prosecutors-2021-1 https://www.insider.com/zip-tie-guy-capitol-riot-plastic-han... > None brought cable ties with them […] At least one seems to have: > Brock was arrested Sunday in Texas after being photographed on the Senate floor during the deadly riot wearing a helmet and heavy vest and carrying plastic zip-tie handcuffs. The 53-year-old is charged with knowingly entering or remaining in a restricted building or grounds without lawful authority, and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds. * https://apnews.com/article/capitol-siege-fort-worth-texas-e13a0ee09d543415d46c3f34a02f444b https://apnews.com/article/capitol-siege-fort-worth-texas-e1... I am reminded of Hanlon's Razor: never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor I think a lot of the mob were useful idiots and are being manipulated via populism by those with an actual clue. Georgia just passed the voter restrictions under the popular 'support' of these folks.

austhrow743 6y ago

Incompetently attempting to do something is attempting to do something.

ramphastidae 6y ago

How convenient that you ignore what was happening the day of the coup: the confirmation of a new President. There was literally a mass rally, hours before the event, where the President and his cronies whipped a mob into a frenzy with lies about fraudulent voting systems and conspiracies to steal the election as the culmination of MONTHS of similar disinformation. They encouraged supporters to take Congress via “trial by combat” in order to prevent the legally elected President from being confirmed. An attempt to block the legal transfer of power in order to illegally maintain your own is clearly an attempt to overthrow a legitimate government: a coup.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
leereeves 6y ago
They clearly meant to disrupt that confirmation in an act of protest, but here's how we know it was not a coup: They left their weapons outside the Capitol. People planning to overthrow a government do not leave their weapons at the door. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26602074 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26602074
- loopz 6y ago
  People were clearly misled. So intention is on the leadership that misled them. That intent was to change the election outcome by means outside the constitution and Law, under coercion and threat of violence.
- ramphastidae 6y ago
  So because two rioters left their guns at home, it wasn’t a coup? Keep moving those goalposts, buddy.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

throw0101a 6y ago

Attempting to overthrow the government is probably at least an insurrection. The fact that Trump told/signalled people to go to the US Capital building can be construed as giving direction, would be put it under the "self-coup" (autogolpe) category: > Naunihal Singh of the U.S. Naval War College and author of Seizing Power: The Strategic Logic of Military Coups, wrote that the attack on the Capitol was "an insurrection, a violent uprising against the government" and "sedition" but not a coup because Trump did not order the military "to seize power on his behalf".[461][462] The Coup D'état Project of the Cline Center for Advanced Social Research at the University of Illinois, which tracks coups and coup attempts globally, classified the attack on the Capitol as an "attempted dissident coup" which the center defines as an unsuccessful coup attempt "initiated by a small group of discontents" such as "ex-military leaders, religious leaders, former government leaders, members of a legislature/parliament, and civilians" (but not police or the military). The Cline Center stated that the "organized, illegal attempt to intervene in the presidential transition" by displacing Congress met this definition.[463][464] Some political scientists identified the attack as an attempted self-coup, in which the head of government attempts to strong-arm the other branches of government to entrench power.[465] Academic Fiona Hill, a former member of Trump's National Security Council, described the attack, and Trump's actions in the months leading up to it, as an attempted self-coup.[466] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol#Terminology_used_to_refer_to_event https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_St...