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Unionizing Tesla would almost certainly not "accelerate the advent of sustainable transport". More likely cause it to wither and stagnate for the gain of a priv

by samr71 6y ago

Unionizing Tesla would almost certainly not "accelerate the advent of sustainable transport". More likely cause it to wither and stagnate for the gain of a privileged few as we saw with GM et al.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
drak0n1c 6y ago
Seeing the current state of Detroit, you have a point that such practices may not have been sustainable.
- avs733 6y ago
  Detroit did this to themselves. They failed to innovate and got beat by the Japanese on quality. That wasn’t the unions fault, but the union gets blamed. The unions complaints were only that they were gonna get left holding the bag when things got bad while the c suite floated off with full pockets..and they were right.
  - garyfirestorm 6y ago
    Your comment unfortunately doesn’t match reality. The uaw people literally avoid any kind of work. I wouldn’t say all of them, but majority of them do. There is zero accountability. They behave with almost no regard to professional rules, they treat foreign nationals as hostile people. No concept of teamwork. First hand experience btw. They have turned simplest of the simple tasks into bureaucratic nightmare, need a bolt removed, oh I’m on a cigarette break which is followed by a lunch break then I’m gonna go over there and chat about something until it’s time to leave. But you can’t touch that wrench and no one can fire me for doing the same thing tomorrow. Somedays I want to quit and start learning serious programming and gtfo here.
    - markdown 6y ago
      Be glad you aren't slaving from 6am to 6pm. Unions fought for the privileges you enjoy now, whether or not you are yourself in a Union. Further, if more people joined and supported Unions, Americans might one day get to enjoy the work/life balance that most of the rest of the world enjoys, with sufficient vacation time, paternity and maternity leave, etc.
      - eru 6y ago
        > Be glad you aren't slaving from 6am to 6pm. Unions fought for the privileges you enjoy now, whether or not you are yourself in a Union. Be glad you aren't sitting in total darkness: I am praying every morning that the sun goes up. Sunlight is a privilege you enjoy now, whether you are joining my prayers or not. (Correlation ain't causation.)
        cloudfifty 6y ago
        Are you suggesting that the labour movement is actually not the cause of (western-)Europe's significantly better labour/welfare laws than the US - which unsurprisingly happens to never had a European-style mass labour movement?
        eru 6y ago
        I'm not sure about 'better'. They have different laws. American workers do enjoy a better standard of living than European workers.
      - garyfirestorm 6y ago
        I do admit we got some labor rights out of the union movement. But there has to be a balance between rights and duties. I am only talking about accountability. Also I work in R&D and hence my situation is a little different from manufacturing. Also FYI I do slave from 8am to 8pm on most of the days.
    - JBSmoove 6y ago
      Ford, GM, Dodge have made an absolute killing in SUVs and trucks over the last several years. Ford sold about 900,000 F150 in 2019 alone. That's not even counting 250s and higher. And these trucks and SUVs are WILDLY profitable! And they are made with union labor... I just don't get it since "the uaw people literally avoid any kind of work" How do they build millions of trucks and SUVs then?
- TaylorAlexander 6y ago
  Without looking at how Detroit failed you cannot deduce from the presence of unions that they were the cause.
foepys 6y ago
All German car manufacturers are heavily unionized. VW has one of the strongest unions in Germany and is one of the largest car manufacturers in the world.
- eru 6y ago
  That's true, but you also have to keep in mind that German unions are not quite like their American counterparts.
- darawk 6y ago
  That's fine for companies in industries that are reasonably mature. But if you want to start a new company in a dynamic industry, Germany is very much not where you want to be. German GDP per capita is about 45k, as compared to 65k per capita in the US. But that hides a lot. Germany's most productive city is Berlin. Berlin's GDP per capita is....45k. The US on the other hand has cities like San Francisco, with a GDP per capita of 98k, fully 2x that of Germany's best city. That isn't an accident. Germany and most of Europe have no tech sector to speak of as a direct consequence of their labor and regulatory policies. The EU is a huge economic block, comparable in scale collectively to the US or China, and it has a highly educated population. And yet, it has near zero presence in the most important industry of the 21st century. That's a staggering indictment of their economic policy. 2nd and 3rd tier US cities have more tech than Europe does. Tesla would never have gotten off the ground anywhere in the EU, and our climate change prospects would be a lot worse off for it. If we want to solve the major problems facing the world, it's going to require major innovation, and that isn't going to come from EU style market regulation.
  - foepys 6y ago
    > Germany's most productive city is Berlin Where did you get this from? Germany is actually the only country in the EU where GDP per capita is higher when the capital is excluded. Munich is at 80,000€, Frankfurt (Main) 95,000€, Hamburg 60,000€, Berlin 40,000€ [1]. Germany is highly federated, with large companies near or in small towns or cities that only exist because the company was founded there decades or centuries ago. You are talking about tech but this is about Tesla. I don't get why people are still treating Tesla like a tech company. They are making cars that happen to have some driving assistance. By that metric VW, BMW, and Daimler are also tech companies, each way larger than Tesla by cars sold, people employed, and GDP impact. Tesla is as much tech as WeWork was tech. 1: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_deutschen_St%C3%A4dte_nach_Bruttoinlandsprodukt https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_deutschen_St%C3%A4dt... (German)
runarberg 6y ago
What makes you so sure about that? Do you have any examples of how unionized workers produce less sustainable business then non-unionized workers? I don’t think Detroit is a good example as auto-workers in Europe still produce plenty growth for their business, while mostly belonging to a union.
onion2k 6y ago
Suggesting a union is bad because it'd be good "for the benefit of a privileged few" is a bit ironic when the company is mamaged by a man who is in the running for the title of Richest Man in the World.
- sjwright 6y ago
  He’s only the near-richest man in theory. If he tried to convert all of his company ownership into cash, the company value would crash so fast that he would probably be lucky to actually recover one fifth of his theoretical wealth.
  - cycomanic 6y ago
    That's a stupid argument, because none of the people on the richest people lists have any significant portion of wealth in liquid assets. Wealth for good reason is not defined as amount of cash you own.
    - mkoubaa 6y ago
      The richest people list do not include those who are good at hiding their wealth
      - whimsicalism 6y ago
        Who is richer than Bezos because they have so much cash stashed away, pray tell?
    - sjwright 6y ago
      It’s not an argument, just an observation that you can’t eat Tesla shares. You seem to be replying as though I’m saying he’s not wealthy? Obviously he’s extremely wealthy by any definition. But most ultra-wealthy people are a LOT more diversified in their portfolio than Musk is. Someone with a diverse portfolio stands more chance of being able to functionally realise their wealth—if, say, they wanted to donate a large chunk of it to some charitable cause. An argument could be made that Buffet is far and away the richest person (in terms of realisable wealth) due to his highly diverse holdings.
JBSmoove 6y ago
GM has been unionized in some form or fashion for nearly a century. And they were wildly profitable, and successful, one of the largest and most successful businesses in the entire world! Toyota also has a large unionized workforce in many places! They've also been wildly successful for many decades! I'm really not getting this "wither and stagnate" argument. Unless you mean if Tesla is unionized maybe in 60 years they will be disrupted by a new upstart firm. Well...ok but that has nothing at all to do with unions.

by samr71 6y ago

Unionizing Tesla would almost certainly not "accelerate the advent of sustainable transport". More likely cause it to wither and stagnate for the gain of a privileged few as we saw with GM et al.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

drak0n1c 6y ago

Seeing the current state of Detroit, you have a point that such practices may not have been sustainable.

avs733 6y ago
Detroit did this to themselves. They failed to innovate and got beat by the Japanese on quality. That wasn’t the unions fault, but the union gets blamed. The unions complaints were only that they were gonna get left holding the bag when things got bad while the c suite floated off with full pockets..and they were right.
- garyfirestorm 6y ago
  Your comment unfortunately doesn’t match reality. The uaw people literally avoid any kind of work. I wouldn’t say all of them, but majority of them do. There is zero accountability. They behave with almost no regard to professional rules, they treat foreign nationals as hostile people. No concept of teamwork. First hand experience btw. They have turned simplest of the simple tasks into bureaucratic nightmare, need a bolt removed, oh I’m on a cigarette break which is followed by a lunch break then I’m gonna go over there and chat about something until it’s time to leave. But you can’t touch that wrench and no one can fire me for doing the same thing tomorrow. Somedays I want to quit and start learning serious programming and gtfo here.
  - markdown 6y ago
    Be glad you aren't slaving from 6am to 6pm. Unions fought for the privileges you enjoy now, whether or not you are yourself in a Union. Further, if more people joined and supported Unions, Americans might one day get to enjoy the work/life balance that most of the rest of the world enjoys, with sufficient vacation time, paternity and maternity leave, etc.
    - eru 6y ago
      > Be glad you aren't slaving from 6am to 6pm. Unions fought for the privileges you enjoy now, whether or not you are yourself in a Union. Be glad you aren't sitting in total darkness: I am praying every morning that the sun goes up. Sunlight is a privilege you enjoy now, whether you are joining my prayers or not. (Correlation ain't causation.)
      - cloudfifty 6y ago
        Are you suggesting that the labour movement is actually not the cause of (western-)Europe's significantly better labour/welfare laws than the US - which unsurprisingly happens to never had a European-style mass labour movement?
        eru 6y ago
        I'm not sure about 'better'. They have different laws. American workers do enjoy a better standard of living than European workers.
    - garyfirestorm 6y ago
      I do admit we got some labor rights out of the union movement. But there has to be a balance between rights and duties. I am only talking about accountability. Also I work in R&D and hence my situation is a little different from manufacturing. Also FYI I do slave from 8am to 8pm on most of the days.
  - JBSmoove 6y ago
    Ford, GM, Dodge have made an absolute killing in SUVs and trucks over the last several years. Ford sold about 900,000 F150 in 2019 alone. That's not even counting 250s and higher. And these trucks and SUVs are WILDLY profitable! And they are made with union labor... I just don't get it since "the uaw people literally avoid any kind of work" How do they build millions of trucks and SUVs then?
TaylorAlexander 6y ago
Without looking at how Detroit failed you cannot deduce from the presence of unions that they were the cause.

foepys 6y ago

All German car manufacturers are heavily unionized. VW has one of the strongest unions in Germany and is one of the largest car manufacturers in the world.

eru 6y ago
That's true, but you also have to keep in mind that German unions are not quite like their American counterparts.
darawk 6y ago
That's fine for companies in industries that are reasonably mature. But if you want to start a new company in a dynamic industry, Germany is very much not where you want to be. German GDP per capita is about 45k, as compared to 65k per capita in the US. But that hides a lot. Germany's most productive city is Berlin. Berlin's GDP per capita is....45k. The US on the other hand has cities like San Francisco, with a GDP per capita of 98k, fully 2x that of Germany's best city. That isn't an accident. Germany and most of Europe have no tech sector to speak of as a direct consequence of their labor and regulatory policies. The EU is a huge economic block, comparable in scale collectively to the US or China, and it has a highly educated population. And yet, it has near zero presence in the most important industry of the 21st century. That's a staggering indictment of their economic policy. 2nd and 3rd tier US cities have more tech than Europe does. Tesla would never have gotten off the ground anywhere in the EU, and our climate change prospects would be a lot worse off for it. If we want to solve the major problems facing the world, it's going to require major innovation, and that isn't going to come from EU style market regulation.
- foepys 6y ago
  > Germany's most productive city is Berlin Where did you get this from? Germany is actually the only country in the EU where GDP per capita is higher when the capital is excluded. Munich is at 80,000€, Frankfurt (Main) 95,000€, Hamburg 60,000€, Berlin 40,000€ [1]. Germany is highly federated, with large companies near or in small towns or cities that only exist because the company was founded there decades or centuries ago. You are talking about tech but this is about Tesla. I don't get why people are still treating Tesla like a tech company. They are making cars that happen to have some driving assistance. By that metric VW, BMW, and Daimler are also tech companies, each way larger than Tesla by cars sold, people employed, and GDP impact. Tesla is as much tech as WeWork was tech. 1: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_deutschen_St%C3%A4dte_nach_Bruttoinlandsprodukt https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_deutschen_St%C3%A4dt... (German)

runarberg 6y ago

What makes you so sure about that? Do you have any examples of how unionized workers produce less sustainable business then non-unionized workers? I don’t think Detroit is a good example as auto-workers in Europe still produce plenty growth for their business, while mostly belonging to a union.

onion2k 6y ago

Suggesting a union is bad because it'd be good "for the benefit of a privileged few" is a bit ironic when the company is mamaged by a man who is in the running for the title of Richest Man in the World.

sjwright 6y ago
He’s only the near-richest man in theory. If he tried to convert all of his company ownership into cash, the company value would crash so fast that he would probably be lucky to actually recover one fifth of his theoretical wealth.
- cycomanic 6y ago
  That's a stupid argument, because none of the people on the richest people lists have any significant portion of wealth in liquid assets. Wealth for good reason is not defined as amount of cash you own.
  - mkoubaa 6y ago
    The richest people list do not include those who are good at hiding their wealth
    - whimsicalism 6y ago
      Who is richer than Bezos because they have so much cash stashed away, pray tell?
  - sjwright 6y ago
    It’s not an argument, just an observation that you can’t eat Tesla shares. You seem to be replying as though I’m saying he’s not wealthy? Obviously he’s extremely wealthy by any definition. But most ultra-wealthy people are a LOT more diversified in their portfolio than Musk is. Someone with a diverse portfolio stands more chance of being able to functionally realise their wealth—if, say, they wanted to donate a large chunk of it to some charitable cause. An argument could be made that Buffet is far and away the richest person (in terms of realisable wealth) due to his highly diverse holdings.

JBSmoove 6y ago

GM has been unionized in some form or fashion for nearly a century. And they were wildly profitable, and successful, one of the largest and most successful businesses in the entire world! Toyota also has a large unionized workforce in many places! They've also been wildly successful for many decades! I'm really not getting this "wither and stagnate" argument. Unless you mean if Tesla is unionized maybe in 60 years they will be disrupted by a new upstart firm. Well...ok but that has nothing at all to do with unions.