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One weird thing I notice living here in Japan are how practically everywhere you go there seems to be old people doing useless jobs presumably just to provide d

One weird thing I notice living here in Japan are how practically everywhere you go there seems to be old people doing useless jobs presumably just to provide dignity - I don’t know the particulars on why that bank is hiring someone to stand all day saying “welcome” to anyone who passes through the door, or the elderly men on construction sites that bow at all who pass, but maybe it’s not as crazy as one thinks.

pavel_lishin 6y ago
Sounds pretty close to the Walmart greeters in the US.
- ACow_Adonis 6y ago
  and this might be unpopular to say, or it might be cultural or classist, but those jobs provide the literal opposite of dignity :( (although I appreciate some of the holders might feel differently).
  - pavel_lishin 6y ago
    Maybe. I honestly don't know. It probably beats staying in your empty home all day, or being relegated to an old folks' home. I hope I can let you know in 50 years.
    - watwut 6y ago
      People who are in old peoples home would be in real pain if they had to stand whole day. Physical pain I mean, old peoples home tend to house people whose health is really gpong down.
  - astrange 6y ago
    It might be better than booking a doctor appointment every day because you have no one to talk to, which happens with the NHS.
  - nemothekid 6y ago
    >but those jobs provide the literal opposite of dignity I think that has more to do with Walmart than being a greeter. There are plenty of high end luxury shops where there is a well groomed man or woman at the front door who does nothing but greet you and open the door.
    - ACow_Adonis 6y ago
      again, perhaps it's a personal or a cultural thing, but it's not about the "class" or standard of a joint/employer. It's the idea of a bullshit job + jobs as an ends rather than a means + the additional distasteful nature of being waited upon like that.
  - rblatz 6y ago
    So they are an important part of the store’s security team. I worked at a Meijer (better union Michigan/Ohio Walmart) and the greeters were on the security budget and team.
- PurpleFoxy 6y ago
  Aren’t greeters mostly to provide some level of theft prevention?
  - seany 6y ago
    In some areas they seem to ask, but you can just walk by or flip them off. It's unclear to me what they really do to their bottom line.
lambda_obrien 6y ago
It's called loyalty, it goes both ways, but American companies don't understand it today. You shouldn't just treat people like a tool or equipment like American companies tend to. Sometimes people need something from the company and the company provides, then in return the employee works harder when they can.
slimsag 6y ago
In college (in the US, 2015 ish) I worked at the on-campus bookstore part-time. My only job was to say welcome to people and ask if I could help them find what they are looking for so that we'd get graded well by secret shoppers. Ironically, as soon as they began to ask where to find something I was required to point at another employee and tell them "He can help you!" so that I stay at the door doing the same thing over and over again. Comic stuff.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  > My only job was to say welcome to people and ask if I could help them find what they are looking for so that we'd get graded well by secret shoppers. > Ironically, as soon as they began to ask where to find something I was required to point at another employee If that were me, I would have substituted "Can I help you find anything?" with something more like "Do you need any help?"
  - 1123581321 6y ago
    Those two phrases are functionally identical in American English in a retail context. The literal difference would not be appreciated by an annoyed shopper, unfortunately.
ThrowawayR2 6y ago
Allowing people a sense of dignity and purpose is really fundamental to mental and physical well being; it's a concept that should resonate with us in the tech industry since lack of either or both is one of the precursors to burnout. Something like Universal Basic Employment is certainly an idea we should all get behind.
- misterkrabs 6y ago
  I get your point and I want to believe - but I always think about how a big chunk of UBI will just go straight to the landlord. What about getting behind more public housing, instead/first?
- asiachick 6y ago
  For most people AFAIK the work needs to be meaningful. Finding meaningful work for everyone seems hard.
astrange 6y ago
Some of this is part of corporate retirement. If you're old but have nothing to do in retirement, your company may demote you so you still have "something" to do. But another part of it is that Japan used to have a lot of pedestrian deaths by cars, like far more than US ever had. They remember this and it's why construction sites and parking garages have 5 apparently useless security guards watching everything.
tkgally 6y ago
I’ve lived in Japan for a long time, but I’ve never been sure, either, what the purpose of those seemingly useless workers is. I suspect, though, that it’s not charity but rather customer service. The person saying “welcome” repeatedly at the bank entrance also occasionally directs customers to the proper window or helps them operate the ATMs; those customers come away a bit happier, and the tellers are interrupted a bit less. The elderly guys at construction sites may have a similar function: by occasionally directing traffic and keeping passersby away from danger, they reduce slightly the possibility of complaints from neighbors and costly accidents. Back in the early 1980s, I used to see a book in Tokyo bookstores called Japan’s Wasted Workers by Jon Woronoff. I assumed it was about those bank welcomers and the like. Peeking into it now at the Open Library [1], though, I see that it focuses on white-collar workers. [1] https://openlibrary.org/search?q=Japan%27s+Wasted+Workers&mode=ebooks&has_fulltext=true https://openlibrary.org/search?q=Japan%27s+Wasted+Workers&mo...

pavel_lishin 6y ago

Sounds pretty close to the Walmart greeters in the US.

ACow_Adonis 6y ago
and this might be unpopular to say, or it might be cultural or classist, but those jobs provide the literal opposite of dignity :( (although I appreciate some of the holders might feel differently).
- pavel_lishin 6y ago
  Maybe. I honestly don't know. It probably beats staying in your empty home all day, or being relegated to an old folks' home. I hope I can let you know in 50 years.
  - watwut 6y ago
    People who are in old peoples home would be in real pain if they had to stand whole day. Physical pain I mean, old peoples home tend to house people whose health is really gpong down.
- astrange 6y ago
  It might be better than booking a doctor appointment every day because you have no one to talk to, which happens with the NHS.
- nemothekid 6y ago
  >but those jobs provide the literal opposite of dignity I think that has more to do with Walmart than being a greeter. There are plenty of high end luxury shops where there is a well groomed man or woman at the front door who does nothing but greet you and open the door.
  - ACow_Adonis 6y ago
    again, perhaps it's a personal or a cultural thing, but it's not about the "class" or standard of a joint/employer. It's the idea of a bullshit job + jobs as an ends rather than a means + the additional distasteful nature of being waited upon like that.
- rblatz 6y ago
  So they are an important part of the store’s security team. I worked at a Meijer (better union Michigan/Ohio Walmart) and the greeters were on the security budget and team.
PurpleFoxy 6y ago
Aren’t greeters mostly to provide some level of theft prevention?
- seany 6y ago
  In some areas they seem to ask, but you can just walk by or flip them off. It's unclear to me what they really do to their bottom line.

lambda_obrien 6y ago

It's called loyalty, it goes both ways, but American companies don't understand it today. You shouldn't just treat people like a tool or equipment like American companies tend to. Sometimes people need something from the company and the company provides, then in return the employee works harder when they can.

slimsag 6y ago

In college (in the US, 2015 ish) I worked at the on-campus bookstore part-time. My only job was to say welcome to people and ask if I could help them find what they are looking for so that we'd get graded well by secret shoppers. Ironically, as soon as they began to ask where to find something I was required to point at another employee and tell them "He can help you!" so that I stay at the door doing the same thing over and over again. Comic stuff.

thaumasiotes 6y ago
> My only job was to say welcome to people and ask if I could help them find what they are looking for so that we'd get graded well by secret shoppers. > Ironically, as soon as they began to ask where to find something I was required to point at another employee If that were me, I would have substituted "Can I help you find anything?" with something more like "Do you need any help?"
- 1123581321 6y ago
  Those two phrases are functionally identical in American English in a retail context. The literal difference would not be appreciated by an annoyed shopper, unfortunately.

ThrowawayR2 6y ago

Allowing people a sense of dignity and purpose is really fundamental to mental and physical well being; it's a concept that should resonate with us in the tech industry since lack of either or both is one of the precursors to burnout. Something like Universal Basic Employment is certainly an idea we should all get behind.

misterkrabs 6y ago
I get your point and I want to believe - but I always think about how a big chunk of UBI will just go straight to the landlord. What about getting behind more public housing, instead/first?
asiachick 6y ago
For most people AFAIK the work needs to be meaningful. Finding meaningful work for everyone seems hard.

astrange 6y ago

Some of this is part of corporate retirement. If you're old but have nothing to do in retirement, your company may demote you so you still have "something" to do. But another part of it is that Japan used to have a lot of pedestrian deaths by cars, like far more than US ever had. They remember this and it's why construction sites and parking garages have 5 apparently useless security guards watching everything.

tkgally 6y ago

I’ve lived in Japan for a long time, but I’ve never been sure, either, what the purpose of those seemingly useless workers is. I suspect, though, that it’s not charity but rather customer service. The person saying “welcome” repeatedly at the bank entrance also occasionally directs customers to the proper window or helps them operate the ATMs; those customers come away a bit happier, and the tellers are interrupted a bit less. The elderly guys at construction sites may have a similar function: by occasionally directing traffic and keeping passersby away from danger, they reduce slightly the possibility of complaints from neighbors and costly accidents. Back in the early 1980s, I used to see a book in Tokyo bookstores called Japan’s Wasted Workers by Jon Woronoff. I assumed it was about those bank welcomers and the like. Peeking into it now at the Open Library [1], though, I see that it focuses on white-collar workers. [1] https://openlibrary.org/search?q=Japan%27s+Wasted+Workers&mode=ebooks&has_fulltext=true https://openlibrary.org/search?q=Japan%27s+Wasted+Workers&mo...