5 ms·

It's mind-boggling to me that Qualcomm only guarantees 2-3 years of support for their chipset. Compare that to the PC processor space, how much does AMD/Intel p

It's mind-boggling to me that Qualcomm only guarantees 2-3 years of support for their chipset. Compare that to the PC processor space, how much does AMD/Intel provide? 10 years? More? Somehow people seem to be running on 15 year-old Thinkpads without a problem, yet a $1000 phone apparently can't scrape by for more than three years due to vendor support?

gruez 6y ago
>Compare that to the PC processor space, how much does AMD/Intel provide? 10 years? More? They don't "provide" anything. It's the software (eg. linux/windows) that's providing backwards compatible support. Vendor support for pc hardware lasts a few years at most.
- ZiiS 6y ago
  Amd and Intel CPUs are still 100% backwards compatable with 40 year old chips. Not just their own chips but also nearly all the features of their competitor's chip too.
  - gruez 6y ago
    >Amd and Intel CPUs are still 100% backwards compatable with 40 year old chips The CPUs might be, but the chipset drivers definitely aren't. You'll have a hard time booting windows 95 on a ryzen system, for instance. Hell, ryzen doesn't officially support windows 7. Still, I get your point, standardization in the PC space (mainly stemming from the "IBM compatible" standard) has made backwards/forwards compatibility much easier.
    - zokier 6y ago
      Somewhat controversially at the time, Kaby Lake from Intel dropped Windows 7 support: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/01/skylake-users-given-18-months-to-upgrade-to-windows-10/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/01/skyla...
    - zrm 6y ago
      What anybody wants is the other way around though. If you want to run Windows 95 on modern hardware you run it in a VM; running it on bare metal isn't that interesting. And the current versions of various Linux distributions do run on 25+ year old PC hardware, if you really want to.
    - josephg 6y ago
      True, but old hardware can run windows 10, or modern Linux just fine. Windows and Linux (and others) seem to hold the policy of drivers for old hardware being maintained and supported seemingly indefinitely. This work isn’t free, but there’s no reason Qualcomm and Samsung and others couldn’t do the same.
    - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
      I am not sure about win95, but applications compiled 15 years ago still run on windows 10. That's stability.
- dyingkneepad 6y ago
  Well, Intel's employees are fixing Intel drivers for Intel hardware released >15 years ago on the Linux Kernel main repository, among other trees such as the Mesa project. So yes they are providing support. Other companies do that too.
- boring_twenties 6y ago
  They provide microcode updates.
zokier 6y ago
That got me thinking, why aren't Dell, HP, Lenovo etc selling "enterprise" Android phones? They could get probably pretty good margins on basic devices if they'd have good well-defined support periods. Bonus points for good MDM compatibility and various silly standard compliances that nobody cares about. Just being able to do purchases from same supplier as workstations seems like a major benefit for IT depts. They could probably do some bundle deals ("buy/lease workstation and get phone for free").
- blackoil 6y ago
  Long term support for client side machine isn't a requirement for enterprises. Most companies typically refresh laptops after 3-5 years.
  - zokier 6y ago
    3-5 years is long-term for a phone.
- tw04 6y ago
  Because most IT departments now get the best of both worlds. They won't pay for phones for employees but still insist employees install their spyware to "byod".
- MikusR 6y ago
  Samsung has enterprise versions of some phones/tablets with 5 year security updates
- coder543 6y ago
  Minus the bundle deals, it sounds like you're describing iPhone.
boring_twenties 6y ago
When Intel released the microcode updates for the MDS family of vulnerabilities, in May 2019, they declined to support my Westmere Xeon, which launched in May 2010. So, not quite 10 years. Still a hell of a lot better than Qualcomm, though.
- rubatuga 6y ago
  HP Z400 series got the microcode updates, so it was actually up to your vendor.
  - boring_twenties 6y ago
    Hmm, don't think so. Vendors cannot create CPU microcode, Intel has to do that. And the relevant Intel document[1] clearly stated that they weren't going to do that. The HP400 specs I found only list Bloomfield processors[2], not Westmere. Perhaps that is the source of your confusion? 1- https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/corporate-information/SA00233-microcode-update-guidance.pdf https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents... 2- https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c01709672 https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c01709672
    - rubatuga 6y ago
      X5690 (Westmere) works well in Z400. Here’s another article specifying the BIOS update: https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/new-microcode-for-bloomfield-and-gulftown.243353/ https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/new-microcode-for...
      - scaladev 6y ago
        Jesus, what a pain. Why the hell do you need to wait for your proprietary OS vendor or BIOS vendor to update anything? On Linux the kernel does that for you, just configure your bootloader to point the kernel to a microcode image and that's it. Why can't windows do the same?
DebtDeflation 6y ago
>yet a $1000 phone apparently can't scrape by for more than three years due to vendor support The OEMs came up with a simple solution. Make batteries non-replaceable so that given the limited charge/discharge cycle life of a Li-ion the phone becomes almost useless after 2-3 years anyway.
- willis936 6y ago
  There’s something else to this story people don’t talk about: write endurance of nand. Phone performance degradation over time can be explained by a combination of (in decreasing outlandishness) TGMLC, nand wearing out, throttling due to battery peak current being lower, and some secret throttling. I haven’t seen nand performance over time discussed or tested. Replaceable batteries might be moot if after two batteries the device was unbearably slow. Consumers would still replace their phones within a few years.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  Whule I also hate the status quo, the batteries can still be replaced, in the same way that a car's exhaust can be replaced, you just need to have the tools and skills" or pay a repairshop to do it for you. If the phone still had years of milage, its worth doing

gruez 6y ago

>Compare that to the PC processor space, how much does AMD/Intel provide? 10 years? More? They don't "provide" anything. It's the software (eg. linux/windows) that's providing backwards compatible support. Vendor support for pc hardware lasts a few years at most.

ZiiS 6y ago
Amd and Intel CPUs are still 100% backwards compatable with 40 year old chips. Not just their own chips but also nearly all the features of their competitor's chip too.
- gruez 6y ago
  >Amd and Intel CPUs are still 100% backwards compatable with 40 year old chips The CPUs might be, but the chipset drivers definitely aren't. You'll have a hard time booting windows 95 on a ryzen system, for instance. Hell, ryzen doesn't officially support windows 7. Still, I get your point, standardization in the PC space (mainly stemming from the "IBM compatible" standard) has made backwards/forwards compatibility much easier.
  - zokier 6y ago
    Somewhat controversially at the time, Kaby Lake from Intel dropped Windows 7 support: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/01/skylake-users-given-18-months-to-upgrade-to-windows-10/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/01/skyla...
  - zrm 6y ago
    What anybody wants is the other way around though. If you want to run Windows 95 on modern hardware you run it in a VM; running it on bare metal isn't that interesting. And the current versions of various Linux distributions do run on 25+ year old PC hardware, if you really want to.
  - josephg 6y ago
    True, but old hardware can run windows 10, or modern Linux just fine. Windows and Linux (and others) seem to hold the policy of drivers for old hardware being maintained and supported seemingly indefinitely. This work isn’t free, but there’s no reason Qualcomm and Samsung and others couldn’t do the same.
  - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
    I am not sure about win95, but applications compiled 15 years ago still run on windows 10. That's stability.
dyingkneepad 6y ago
Well, Intel's employees are fixing Intel drivers for Intel hardware released >15 years ago on the Linux Kernel main repository, among other trees such as the Mesa project. So yes they are providing support. Other companies do that too.
boring_twenties 6y ago
They provide microcode updates.

zokier 6y ago

That got me thinking, why aren't Dell, HP, Lenovo etc selling "enterprise" Android phones? They could get probably pretty good margins on basic devices if they'd have good well-defined support periods. Bonus points for good MDM compatibility and various silly standard compliances that nobody cares about. Just being able to do purchases from same supplier as workstations seems like a major benefit for IT depts. They could probably do some bundle deals ("buy/lease workstation and get phone for free").

blackoil 6y ago
Long term support for client side machine isn't a requirement for enterprises. Most companies typically refresh laptops after 3-5 years.
- zokier 6y ago
  3-5 years is long-term for a phone.
tw04 6y ago
Because most IT departments now get the best of both worlds. They won't pay for phones for employees but still insist employees install their spyware to "byod".
MikusR 6y ago
Samsung has enterprise versions of some phones/tablets with 5 year security updates
coder543 6y ago
Minus the bundle deals, it sounds like you're describing iPhone.

boring_twenties 6y ago

When Intel released the microcode updates for the MDS family of vulnerabilities, in May 2019, they declined to support my Westmere Xeon, which launched in May 2010. So, not quite 10 years. Still a hell of a lot better than Qualcomm, though.

rubatuga 6y ago
HP Z400 series got the microcode updates, so it was actually up to your vendor.
- boring_twenties 6y ago
  Hmm, don't think so. Vendors cannot create CPU microcode, Intel has to do that. And the relevant Intel document[1] clearly stated that they weren't going to do that. The HP400 specs I found only list Bloomfield processors[2], not Westmere. Perhaps that is the source of your confusion? 1- https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/corporate-information/SA00233-microcode-update-guidance.pdf https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents... 2- https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c01709672 https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c01709672
  - rubatuga 6y ago
    X5690 (Westmere) works well in Z400. Here’s another article specifying the BIOS update: https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/new-microcode-for-bloomfield-and-gulftown.243353/ https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/new-microcode-for...
    - scaladev 6y ago
      Jesus, what a pain. Why the hell do you need to wait for your proprietary OS vendor or BIOS vendor to update anything? On Linux the kernel does that for you, just configure your bootloader to point the kernel to a microcode image and that's it. Why can't windows do the same?

DebtDeflation 6y ago

>yet a $1000 phone apparently can't scrape by for more than three years due to vendor support The OEMs came up with a simple solution. Make batteries non-replaceable so that given the limited charge/discharge cycle life of a Li-ion the phone becomes almost useless after 2-3 years anyway.

willis936 6y ago
There’s something else to this story people don’t talk about: write endurance of nand. Phone performance degradation over time can be explained by a combination of (in decreasing outlandishness) TGMLC, nand wearing out, throttling due to battery peak current being lower, and some secret throttling. I haven’t seen nand performance over time discussed or tested. Replaceable batteries might be moot if after two batteries the device was unbearably slow. Consumers would still replace their phones within a few years.
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
Whule I also hate the status quo, the batteries can still be replaced, in the same way that a car's exhaust can be replaced, you just need to have the tools and skills" or pay a repairshop to do it for you. If the phone still had years of milage, its worth doing