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More housing = more people = more revenue. That revenue turns into more infrastructure, more restaurants, etc. In fact more density makes infrastructure more ec

More housing = more people = more revenue. That revenue turns into more infrastructure, more restaurants, etc. In fact more density makes infrastructure more economical to operate on a per capita basis. Think Hong Kong. The cost of upgrading infrastructure in a busy city is enormously expensive. San Francisco is on a peninsula with no room at all to expand outward. The only solution is to build up and that’s a real problem in an area prone to earthquakes. Plus there are a lot of people that like the character of their neighbourhood and don’t want to live in an apartment building. It isn’t their fault that SF became the global tech capital.

arcticbull 6y ago
> The cost of upgrading infrastructure in a busy city is enormously expensive. So having more people to split that cost with would help! To be clear Hong Kong island is far harder to build on. > Plus there are a lot of people that like the character of their neighbourhood and don’t want to live in an apartment building. It isn’t their fault that SF became the global tech capital. They’re also not entitled to that. In a democracy the many decide.
- chongli 6y ago
  The many struggle to organize themselves as effectively as the few. This is how it’s always been in politics. I’m not aware of any recent development that would change that dynamic.
- ntvSF313throw 6y ago
  > They’re also not entitled to that. In a democracy the many decide. Actually, yes they are. San Francisco is a participatory democracy. Between a large # of ballots voted for each November, we elect our board of supervisors and attend supervisor meetings to tell them how to vote. If people don't vote, well, that's their fault.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Nobody is entitled to a view or a property value. It’s not written down, it’s not codified, it’s not an entitlement. It’s a side effect of poor policy. I say that as someone who owns property in San Francisco.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  In a democracy the many decide. In a democracy the people who inhabit a place decide. Not the people who want to inhabit it. That's not democracy, it's colonialism.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    lol, that's not colonialism. Colonialism: the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically. However, with that in mind, I'm alluding to the kinds of people in a city like San Francisco. The older, rich, land-owning class tends to be very activist and tends to vote. The younger, less-wealthy, renter class tends not to vote. Therefore, the needs of the few are outcompeted by the needs of the many.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- ic0n0cl4st 6y ago
  > They’re also not entitled to that. In a democracy the many decide. We did decide, and continue to do so in supervisor meetings and in the ballot box. You might want to read up on federalism.
ic0n0cl4st 6y ago
> The cost of upgrading infrastructure in a busy city is enormously expensive. San Francisco is on a peninsula with no room at all to expand outward. The only solution is to build up and that’s a real problem in an area prone to earthquakes. People always ignore this fact. Infrastructure isn’t free. When all is said and done the Central Subway extension will likely have cost over $2bn for 1.7 miles of subway. [1] The new transit center cost $2.2bn [2]. Rebuilding 1/2 of the bay bridge cost $6.5bn. [3] Consider that money for all of this is artificially restricted by Prop 13, and by California being a net-giver state, paying about $40bn per year more to the fed than we receive back, effectively being a piggy bank for poorer states. > Plus there are a lot of people that like the character of their neighbourhood and don’t want to live in an apartment building. Many commenters with a lot of hatred for San Francisco’s unique brand of dirext democracy are sadly OK with overruling the expressed will of the people not to turn our home into New York just so some tech billionaires can sell more banner ads. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Subway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Subway 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_Transit_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_Transit_Center 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_span_replacement_of_the_San_Francisco%E2%80%93Oakland_Bay_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_span_replacement_of_th...
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Well that's just inefficiency or graft. The rest of the world is able to achieve far more for far less cost. > Many commenters with a lot of hatred for San Francisco’s unique brand of dirext democracy are sadly OK with overruling the expressed will of the people not to turn our home into New York just so some tech billionaires can sell more banner ads. Who's our? Generally voters tend to be older, wealthier and landowners. The large pile of younger, less wealthy, more transient renters isn't represented well. I don't think the outcome means the system works.
  - ic0n0cl4st 6y ago
    > Well that's just inefficiency or graft. The rest of the world is able to achieve far more for far less cost. Citation? > Who's our? Generally voters tend to be older, wealthier and landowners. The large pile of younger, less wealthy, more transient renters isn't represented well. I don't think the outcome means the system works. That’s how democracy works. If you don’t vote, you don’t have a voice.
skrtskrt 6y ago
Basically all of Japan is earthquake prone, they do just fine. The building technology is there.

arcticbull 6y ago

> The cost of upgrading infrastructure in a busy city is enormously expensive. So having more people to split that cost with would help! To be clear Hong Kong island is far harder to build on. > Plus there are a lot of people that like the character of their neighbourhood and don’t want to live in an apartment building. It isn’t their fault that SF became the global tech capital. They’re also not entitled to that. In a democracy the many decide.

chongli 6y ago
The many struggle to organize themselves as effectively as the few. This is how it’s always been in politics. I’m not aware of any recent development that would change that dynamic.
ntvSF313throw 6y ago
> They’re also not entitled to that. In a democracy the many decide. Actually, yes they are. San Francisco is a participatory democracy. Between a large # of ballots voted for each November, we elect our board of supervisors and attend supervisor meetings to tell them how to vote. If people don't vote, well, that's their fault.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Nobody is entitled to a view or a property value. It’s not written down, it’s not codified, it’s not an entitlement. It’s a side effect of poor policy. I say that as someone who owns property in San Francisco.
nitrogen 6y ago
In a democracy the many decide. In a democracy the people who inhabit a place decide. Not the people who want to inhabit it. That's not democracy, it's colonialism.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  lol, that's not colonialism. Colonialism: the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically. However, with that in mind, I'm alluding to the kinds of people in a city like San Francisco. The older, rich, land-owning class tends to be very activist and tends to vote. The younger, less-wealthy, renter class tends not to vote. Therefore, the needs of the few are outcompeted by the needs of the many.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
ic0n0cl4st 6y ago
> They’re also not entitled to that. In a democracy the many decide. We did decide, and continue to do so in supervisor meetings and in the ballot box. You might want to read up on federalism.

ic0n0cl4st 6y ago

> The cost of upgrading infrastructure in a busy city is enormously expensive. San Francisco is on a peninsula with no room at all to expand outward. The only solution is to build up and that’s a real problem in an area prone to earthquakes. People always ignore this fact. Infrastructure isn’t free. When all is said and done the Central Subway extension will likely have cost over $2bn for 1.7 miles of subway. [1] The new transit center cost $2.2bn [2]. Rebuilding 1/2 of the bay bridge cost $6.5bn. [3] Consider that money for all of this is artificially restricted by Prop 13, and by California being a net-giver state, paying about $40bn per year more to the fed than we receive back, effectively being a piggy bank for poorer states. > Plus there are a lot of people that like the character of their neighbourhood and don’t want to live in an apartment building. Many commenters with a lot of hatred for San Francisco’s unique brand of dirext democracy are sadly OK with overruling the expressed will of the people not to turn our home into New York just so some tech billionaires can sell more banner ads. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Subway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Subway 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_Transit_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_Transit_Center 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_span_replacement_of_the_San_Francisco%E2%80%93Oakland_Bay_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_span_replacement_of_th...

arcticbull 6y ago
Well that's just inefficiency or graft. The rest of the world is able to achieve far more for far less cost. > Many commenters with a lot of hatred for San Francisco’s unique brand of dirext democracy are sadly OK with overruling the expressed will of the people not to turn our home into New York just so some tech billionaires can sell more banner ads. Who's our? Generally voters tend to be older, wealthier and landowners. The large pile of younger, less wealthy, more transient renters isn't represented well. I don't think the outcome means the system works.
- ic0n0cl4st 6y ago
  > Well that's just inefficiency or graft. The rest of the world is able to achieve far more for far less cost. Citation? > Who's our? Generally voters tend to be older, wealthier and landowners. The large pile of younger, less wealthy, more transient renters isn't represented well. I don't think the outcome means the system works. That’s how democracy works. If you don’t vote, you don’t have a voice.

skrtskrt 6y ago

Basically all of Japan is earthquake prone, they do just fine. The building technology is there.