5 ms·

"Among the many friends the entrepreneur made over his life, some said the cause of his death had spanned many months, in plain sight to those who surrounded hi

by Leary 6y ago

"Among the many friends the entrepreneur made over his life, some said the cause of his death had spanned many months, in plain sight to those who surrounded him. Last summer, his Park City companions hired an on-call doctor. Unless Mr. Hsieh moderated his drug and alcohol use, the doctor said, he would die within six months." It's one thing to overly indulge a billionaire friend, it's another to endanger his physical/mental well being to the point of death.

rchaud 6y ago
You cannot forcibly make someone go to rehab. People are quick to blame his 'friends', but it appears that they hired a personal doctor, who gave doctorly advice. What more could they do?
- caycep 6y ago
  In geriatric medicine, there is a somewhat defined, albeit difficult, process of declaring someone medically incompetent to manage their own affairs; they usually are committed to specialized (memory care) facilities. In some cases, the symptoms and rationale are clearly obvious. In others...these patients can be vulnerable to less scrupulous individuals. For a wealthy high functioning billionaire, but one who is arguably affected by dopamine dysregulation that compromises his faculties, I'd imagine it's a trickier path to walk...
  - rchaud 6y ago
    The press have already painted his friends as opportunistic hangers-on. Imagine how it would have looked if they actually started making moves to take on power of attorney.
    - caycep 6y ago
      yeah...that's what seems to make it especially tricky. There would have to be a good lawyer involved, and I'm not sure how they would find a trusted third party to be the conservator...
- nickelcitymario 6y ago
  I kinda agree. It's entirely possible that they were being callous and greedy, but from what I've read, it sounds like they made every effort short of getting fired. Now, maybe they should have all worked together and risked him declaring them all disloyal, but it's not like they didn't try. Plus, if I had a close friend who was doing mushrooms and nitrous oxide, I wouldn't necessarily think that was particularly dangerous. I, perhaps ignorantly, would have considered those to be relatively safe things to experiment with. It's so easy to say what should have been done after the fact, but it can be incredibly difficult to know the right thing in the moment.
  - Drblessing 6y ago
    +1, anyone that was telling him the truth gets removed, so what are they supposed to do? Looks like they tried with the wellness center and doctor. It's more grey than black and white.
- omginternets 6y ago
  I've often wondered about this, in the abstract. What if the reason someone isn't motivated to get better is precisely because of the acute drug dependency? In other words, what if getting someone through the initial withdrawal of, say, heroin stabilized them enough to feel motivated to improve their lives? After all, we use this reasoning to prescribe medication for e.g. anxiety and depression. The reasoning is that drugs are sometimes very good at providing people with just enough stability to allow for long-term solutions like therapy. If this is indeed the case, might there not be some situations in which forcibly taking someone to rehab would be helpful? The "you cannot forcibly make someone go to rehab" seems like policy more than actual truth. It may even be a good policy, for all I know. But assuming I'm right, maybe we shouldn't confuse the two.
onetimemanytime 6y ago
Ultimately everyone makes his own decisions, especially someone with essentially unlimited funds. We can go through the moves and end at the same conclusion.
sneak 6y ago
Our lives and bodies are our own, to use, build, and destroy as we see fit. It's one thing to help a friend avoid an accidental death, but this speaks to a months long pattern of behavior that was clearly a deliberate personal decision. What's the point of wealth if not obtaining the basic freedom to live (and die) how we choose?
- omgwtfbbq 6y ago
  >a months long pattern of behavior that was clearly a deliberate personal decision Drug/Alcohol addiction is hardly a personal decision... This is a dangerous point of view to take.
  - sneak 6y ago
    Whose decision is it, if not the person who opts to become addicted and continue that addiction? People like to personify addiction, as if there is some outside force controlling the person, but this is to discount and discard every single addict who decided to clean themselves up. I know lots of addicts who chose to continue, and I know lots of addicts who chose to stop. Don't personify the addiction: the brain of an addict is still that person's brain, and their decisions are still their own, even if they are de-legitimized in your own opinion due to their addiction. There is literally no one else who could possibly be responsible for the decisions of that human's brain and actions than that human being. What goes in to our own bodies when we are not coerced by another person is our own decision, full stop.
    - lolc 6y ago
      "Opting" to become addicted? I know one person who says of herself that some days she just can't go into the city. Because she knows on those days she'd get hooked again if she were to pass a place where she used to shoot. And she talks about "it", that urge, in the third person. I fully "discount" her judgment in some areas and she would agree. Like I can't reason you into holding your breath for longer than a minute, I can't reason her into ignoring the urge. I would not treat as "legitimate" a decision she takes following that urge. Whether she stays clean or not depends a lot on her surroundings. Does that put responsibility on her friends? You bet. I wonder, what do you make of Toxoplasmosis? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis#Rodents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis#Rodents

by Leary 6y ago

rchaud 6y ago

You cannot forcibly make someone go to rehab. People are quick to blame his 'friends', but it appears that they hired a personal doctor, who gave doctorly advice. What more could they do?

caycep 6y ago
In geriatric medicine, there is a somewhat defined, albeit difficult, process of declaring someone medically incompetent to manage their own affairs; they usually are committed to specialized (memory care) facilities. In some cases, the symptoms and rationale are clearly obvious. In others...these patients can be vulnerable to less scrupulous individuals. For a wealthy high functioning billionaire, but one who is arguably affected by dopamine dysregulation that compromises his faculties, I'd imagine it's a trickier path to walk...
- rchaud 6y ago
  The press have already painted his friends as opportunistic hangers-on. Imagine how it would have looked if they actually started making moves to take on power of attorney.
  - caycep 6y ago
    yeah...that's what seems to make it especially tricky. There would have to be a good lawyer involved, and I'm not sure how they would find a trusted third party to be the conservator...
nickelcitymario 6y ago
I kinda agree. It's entirely possible that they were being callous and greedy, but from what I've read, it sounds like they made every effort short of getting fired. Now, maybe they should have all worked together and risked him declaring them all disloyal, but it's not like they didn't try. Plus, if I had a close friend who was doing mushrooms and nitrous oxide, I wouldn't necessarily think that was particularly dangerous. I, perhaps ignorantly, would have considered those to be relatively safe things to experiment with. It's so easy to say what should have been done after the fact, but it can be incredibly difficult to know the right thing in the moment.
- Drblessing 6y ago
  +1, anyone that was telling him the truth gets removed, so what are they supposed to do? Looks like they tried with the wellness center and doctor. It's more grey than black and white.
omginternets 6y ago
I've often wondered about this, in the abstract. What if the reason someone isn't motivated to get better is precisely because of the acute drug dependency? In other words, what if getting someone through the initial withdrawal of, say, heroin stabilized them enough to feel motivated to improve their lives? After all, we use this reasoning to prescribe medication for e.g. anxiety and depression. The reasoning is that drugs are sometimes very good at providing people with just enough stability to allow for long-term solutions like therapy. If this is indeed the case, might there not be some situations in which forcibly taking someone to rehab would be helpful? The "you cannot forcibly make someone go to rehab" seems like policy more than actual truth. It may even be a good policy, for all I know. But assuming I'm right, maybe we shouldn't confuse the two.

onetimemanytime 6y ago

Ultimately everyone makes his own decisions, especially someone with essentially unlimited funds. We can go through the moves and end at the same conclusion.

sneak 6y ago

Our lives and bodies are our own, to use, build, and destroy as we see fit. It's one thing to help a friend avoid an accidental death, but this speaks to a months long pattern of behavior that was clearly a deliberate personal decision. What's the point of wealth if not obtaining the basic freedom to live (and die) how we choose?

omgwtfbbq 6y ago
>a months long pattern of behavior that was clearly a deliberate personal decision Drug/Alcohol addiction is hardly a personal decision... This is a dangerous point of view to take.
- sneak 6y ago
  Whose decision is it, if not the person who opts to become addicted and continue that addiction? People like to personify addiction, as if there is some outside force controlling the person, but this is to discount and discard every single addict who decided to clean themselves up. I know lots of addicts who chose to continue, and I know lots of addicts who chose to stop. Don't personify the addiction: the brain of an addict is still that person's brain, and their decisions are still their own, even if they are de-legitimized in your own opinion due to their addiction. There is literally no one else who could possibly be responsible for the decisions of that human's brain and actions than that human being. What goes in to our own bodies when we are not coerced by another person is our own decision, full stop.
  - lolc 6y ago
    "Opting" to become addicted? I know one person who says of herself that some days she just can't go into the city. Because she knows on those days she'd get hooked again if she were to pass a place where she used to shoot. And she talks about "it", that urge, in the third person. I fully "discount" her judgment in some areas and she would agree. Like I can't reason you into holding your breath for longer than a minute, I can't reason her into ignoring the urge. I would not treat as "legitimate" a decision she takes following that urge. Whether she stays clean or not depends a lot on her surroundings. Does that put responsibility on her friends? You bet. I wonder, what do you make of Toxoplasmosis? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis#Rodents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis#Rodents