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Here’s a recent interview with them https://youtu.be/VykTBPKwYnA https://youtu.be/VykTBPKwYnA I’ve been considering starting a software coop to build open sour

by m_ke 6y ago

Here’s a recent interview with them https://youtu.be/VykTBPKwYnA https://youtu.be/VykTBPKwYnA I’ve been considering starting a software coop to build open source versions of these middleman gig work services for a while. Would anyone on here be interested in joining one? With so many well paid engineers I’m also surprised that there’s not more coop based tech startups in the states.

beaconstudios 6y ago
Developers are well paid in the US because of VC and monopoly backed business models. To go coop is to abandon those options, one explicitly and one implicitly.
- m_ke 6y ago
  What I meant by well paid was that most engineers who spent a few years at FAANGs have 6 figures in savings and can use some of that capital to kickstart a cooperative without needing venture funding. A coop could absolutely become a monopoly in a market. The reason developers in the US make so much is because they live in a large wealthy English speaking country that’s the launching point for most ventures before global expansion.
  - beaconstudios 6y ago
    perhaps California developers talk a big game but don't put their money where their mouth is? I would expect the same bootstrapping of cooperatives but it doesn't really happen. I think cooperatives would struggle to gain a monopoly holding because they're not as ruthless as investor-driven companies. They tend to treat their workers fairly and focus on quality of life, over relentlessly pursuing high quarterly growth targets. That's a very good thing for the employees and probably the customers too, but makes the company less competitive. > The reason developers in the US make so much is because they live in a large wealthy country that’s the launching point for most ventures before global expansion. If that were the case then developers all over the US would make bank. They don't; only in startup-focused areas like the Bay Area and NYC. It's the same here in the UK, you can make a ton of money if you work in London for hyper-capitalist companies, but outside of London most developers are making 40-60k max. Which is still good for the UK, but not the 6 figure incomes that even shit-tier developers can make in California.
    - m_ke 6y ago
      > perhaps California developers talk a big game but don't put their money where their mouth is? I would expect the same bootstrapping of cooperatives but it doesn't really happen. I suspect a big factor in that is a lack of a safety net in the US. FAANG engineers with enough mileage to have some savings have families and mortgages that make it hard to give up their employee provided healthcare and risk their own savings on a new venture. I was foolish enough to go into startups as a new grad with huge student loans and though I have enjoyed it, it has not been good for my physical nor financial health. > I think cooperatives would struggle to gain a monopoly holding because they're not as ruthless as investor-driven companies. They tend to treat their workers fairly and focus on quality of life, over relentlessly pursuing high quarterly growth targets. That's a very good thing for the employees and probably the customers too, but makes the company less competitive. Biggest obstacle is not being able to burn billions of dollars on growth and expansion with no clear path to profitability like the Ubers and WeWorks of the world. A coop could probably get to monopoly scale through mergers with other coops in adjacent industries. In the case of gig work, there's no reason why a NYC based drivers coop couldn't slowly expand to food delivery, logistics, car rentals and etc, then jump to other major cities in through mergers with smaller coops in those markets. There would be a lot of benefits to having a single middleman platform with some sort of a social credit system (reviews) baked in and a large user base to launch new offerings to. > If that were the case then developers all over the US would make bank. They don't; only in startup-focused areas like the Bay Area and NYC. It's the same here in the UK, you can make a ton of money if you work in London for hyper-capitalist companies, but outside of London most developers are making 40-60k max. Which is still good for the UK, but not the 6 figure incomes that even shit-tier developers can make in California. I'm an immigrant who grew up in NYC and up until this year I would have never considered moving to a small town in middle america due to a lack of jobs and a shitty walmart and car centric lifestyle. In New York I can quit my job on Monday and have a choice of 4-5 job offers by Friday. Now that companies have been forced to be more open to remote work I can imagine people in the middle of nowhere having the same options and I anticipate that it will lead to a major repeat of the white flight, sending a ton of white collar workers out of the cities and into suburbia. Starting a tech company used to be a very expensive venture that required knocking on doors of VCs and racking servers. Now that we're starting to have the infrastructure in place to work remotely and can spin up machines on the fly for under $100/month things will probably change. The pandemic will accelerate this trend.
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    Yeah, a lot of the constraints around software services are a function of market size and legal changes. It's intensely profitable to have a large market with the same regulation, and one would imagine that software professionals would be paid a lot in such a place. And interestingly enough, in both China and the US, software professionals make a lot of money.
    - m_ke 6y ago
      Yeah. US also benefitted from being isolated from any threats by huge bodies of water, having a ton of cheap land, speaking english and being welcoming to immigrants. Thanks to this the whole global economy is tied to the dollar and runs through wall street.
jessxdesign 6y ago
Give us a shout over at Start.coop if you decide to go this direction. We have lots of resources and supports available to help you get off the ground.
maxmamis 6y ago
> I’ve been considering starting a software coop to build open source versions of these middleman gig work services for a while. Would anyone on here be interested in joining one? i’ve been idly considering the same thing for a while now. i’d be down to chat about it, [my username]@gmail.com

by m_ke 6y ago

beaconstudios 6y ago

Developers are well paid in the US because of VC and monopoly backed business models. To go coop is to abandon those options, one explicitly and one implicitly.

m_ke 6y ago
What I meant by well paid was that most engineers who spent a few years at FAANGs have 6 figures in savings and can use some of that capital to kickstart a cooperative without needing venture funding. A coop could absolutely become a monopoly in a market. The reason developers in the US make so much is because they live in a large wealthy English speaking country that’s the launching point for most ventures before global expansion.
- beaconstudios 6y ago
  perhaps California developers talk a big game but don't put their money where their mouth is? I would expect the same bootstrapping of cooperatives but it doesn't really happen. I think cooperatives would struggle to gain a monopoly holding because they're not as ruthless as investor-driven companies. They tend to treat their workers fairly and focus on quality of life, over relentlessly pursuing high quarterly growth targets. That's a very good thing for the employees and probably the customers too, but makes the company less competitive. > The reason developers in the US make so much is because they live in a large wealthy country that’s the launching point for most ventures before global expansion. If that were the case then developers all over the US would make bank. They don't; only in startup-focused areas like the Bay Area and NYC. It's the same here in the UK, you can make a ton of money if you work in London for hyper-capitalist companies, but outside of London most developers are making 40-60k max. Which is still good for the UK, but not the 6 figure incomes that even shit-tier developers can make in California.
  - m_ke 6y ago
    > perhaps California developers talk a big game but don't put their money where their mouth is? I would expect the same bootstrapping of cooperatives but it doesn't really happen. I suspect a big factor in that is a lack of a safety net in the US. FAANG engineers with enough mileage to have some savings have families and mortgages that make it hard to give up their employee provided healthcare and risk their own savings on a new venture. I was foolish enough to go into startups as a new grad with huge student loans and though I have enjoyed it, it has not been good for my physical nor financial health. > I think cooperatives would struggle to gain a monopoly holding because they're not as ruthless as investor-driven companies. They tend to treat their workers fairly and focus on quality of life, over relentlessly pursuing high quarterly growth targets. That's a very good thing for the employees and probably the customers too, but makes the company less competitive. Biggest obstacle is not being able to burn billions of dollars on growth and expansion with no clear path to profitability like the Ubers and WeWorks of the world. A coop could probably get to monopoly scale through mergers with other coops in adjacent industries. In the case of gig work, there's no reason why a NYC based drivers coop couldn't slowly expand to food delivery, logistics, car rentals and etc, then jump to other major cities in through mergers with smaller coops in those markets. There would be a lot of benefits to having a single middleman platform with some sort of a social credit system (reviews) baked in and a large user base to launch new offerings to. > If that were the case then developers all over the US would make bank. They don't; only in startup-focused areas like the Bay Area and NYC. It's the same here in the UK, you can make a ton of money if you work in London for hyper-capitalist companies, but outside of London most developers are making 40-60k max. Which is still good for the UK, but not the 6 figure incomes that even shit-tier developers can make in California. I'm an immigrant who grew up in NYC and up until this year I would have never considered moving to a small town in middle america due to a lack of jobs and a shitty walmart and car centric lifestyle. In New York I can quit my job on Monday and have a choice of 4-5 job offers by Friday. Now that companies have been forced to be more open to remote work I can imagine people in the middle of nowhere having the same options and I anticipate that it will lead to a major repeat of the white flight, sending a ton of white collar workers out of the cities and into suburbia. Starting a tech company used to be a very expensive venture that required knocking on doors of VCs and racking servers. Now that we're starting to have the infrastructure in place to work remotely and can spin up machines on the fly for under $100/month things will probably change. The pandemic will accelerate this trend.
- disgruntledphd2 6y ago
  Yeah, a lot of the constraints around software services are a function of market size and legal changes. It's intensely profitable to have a large market with the same regulation, and one would imagine that software professionals would be paid a lot in such a place. And interestingly enough, in both China and the US, software professionals make a lot of money.
  - m_ke 6y ago
    Yeah. US also benefitted from being isolated from any threats by huge bodies of water, having a ton of cheap land, speaking english and being welcoming to immigrants. Thanks to this the whole global economy is tied to the dollar and runs through wall street.

jessxdesign 6y ago

Give us a shout over at Start.coop if you decide to go this direction. We have lots of resources and supports available to help you get off the ground.

maxmamis 6y ago

> I’ve been considering starting a software coop to build open source versions of these middleman gig work services for a while. Would anyone on here be interested in joining one? i’ve been idly considering the same thing for a while now. i’d be down to chat about it, [my username]@gmail.com