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You are seriously conflating "social anxiety disorder" and "introversion." The idea that a concert would "drain you so much it will be hard to enjoy" or that an

by dkarl 15y ago

You are seriously conflating "social anxiety disorder" and "introversion." The idea that a concert would "drain you so much it will be hard to enjoy" or that an introvert would have a tough time interacting with a group long enough to go on a rock climbing trip is essentially saying that an introverted person is somehow handicapped, or pushed to their introversion by a type of mental disorder. Yep, that's exactly my point. The label has been embraced as a way to put a positive spin on social anxiety. I don't necessarily think it's a good way to use the word, but on the other hand, I'm not sure it's accurate to call someone like you who is able to enjoy himself and interact fluently with groups of people an "introvert." The traditional use of the word seems more in line with the idea of an introvert as someone who has an aversion to social interaction rather than a simple preference for other uses of time. Naturally people tend to rationalize, so it's hard to tell. By the way, I think it's healthy and not entirely unjustified to put a positive spin on social anxiety. Most of my abilities and good qualities come from the time I've spent alone. I just don't think it's sustainable to be in complete denial about it.

andywood 15y ago
You're still doing it. Introversion is not social anxiety. I am categorically an introvert. I do not suffer in the slightest from social anxiety - I'm perfectly comfortable in crowds and most social situations. What you're doing in this comment and the one above is simply displaying ignorance of what introversion means. And just because most laypeople have an inaccurate idea of what the word "introverted" means does not mean that it doesn't have a fairly well-defined technical meaning.
- dkarl 15y ago
  I'm not ignorant of what you think introversion is. I learned it reading your first comment. Like I said elsewhere, the argument here is about what the word actually means. Jung says introverts experience emotional drain when they're around other people, so by his definition, if you are comfortable being around large groups of people for any length of time, then you are not an introvert. Instead of just insisting that I accept your definition of the word, try persuading me.
  - andywood 15y ago
    It isn't my definition. There's a fairly coherent consensus view of the salient points of the intro/extra dichotomy. You're distorting it. For example, the first half of your sentence beginning "Jung" is correct, but the second half is gross exaggeration. Other people aren't Kryptonite. That's what's wrong with your top post as well - it's full of exaggeration which misrepresents introversion. There's been plenty written on the topic, including the linked article, which you seem to reject.
    - dkarl 15y ago
      There's a fairly coherent consensus view of the salient points of the intro/extra dichotomy Not at all. First of all, introversion was a concept long before psychologists started to get technical with it. Second, its appeal as a psychological concept is mostly to laymen like us, and it certainly isn't used in any technical sense when people write blog posts about how great introverts are. So even without citing any disagreements among psychologists, there's a question of whether we should go with a some psychologist's technical meaning or the meaning in popular usage. In popular usage, you can see disagreement here on this page. One way to see how a word is used is Google: http://philosophy.lander.edu/ethics/jung.html http://philosophy.lander.edu/ethics/jung.html: "Weakness of the introverted attitude includes ... (1) a lack confidence in relation to people and things and (2) a tendency to be unsociable, shy, and hesitant." Don't worry, his list of weaknesses for extraversion is bigger ;-) http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/genpsytraits.html http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/genpsytraits.html: "The more obvious aspects of introversion are shyness, a distaste for social functions, and a love of privacy." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion: "Introversion does not describe social discomfort but rather social preference: an introvert may not be shy but may merely prefer less social activities." Good ol' Wikipedia, the voice of the people ;-) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/introvert http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/introvert: "1. a shy person. 2. Psychology . a person characterized by concern primarily with his or her own thoughts and feelings ( opposed to extrovert)." Funny how dictionaries list multiple definitions for words. Clearly they're all wrong except one! Here's a nice quote from Jung himself about the "extreme" introvert (gathered from this page: http://www.infj.com/INFJ_Introversion.htm http://www.infj.com/INFJ_Introversion.htm): "In a large gathering he feels lonely and lost. The more crowded it is, the greater becomes his resistance. He is not in the least 'with it,' and has no love of enthusiastic get-togethers. He is not a good mixer. What he does, he does in his own way, barricading himself against influences from outside. . . . Under normal conditions he is pessimistic and worried, because the world and human beings are not in the least good but crush him. . . ." Wow, that's a downer. You'll find more ammunition for yourself than for me on that page, though, as apparently psychologists have tried to empirically distinguish shyness, introversion, neuroticism, embarrassability, public shyness, private shyness, and sociability. Naturally in order to fit all those in as distinct concepts they've had to define them quite narrowly as aspects of personality instead of sticking to the broader idea of introversion as a "type." However, on that page the immediate followup to the Jung quote I quoted (not by Jung, and possibly not referring to his views) is this: "In less extreme cases, introverts are simply more conservative than not, preferring the familiar surroundings of home and intimate times with a few close friends; they husband their energy and would rather stay put than go from place to place." I think that characterization would be contested as well. So no, there is no coherent consensus. You can see all over this page as well that many of the arguments made here take the same form: accept my definition of "introvert", and my conclusions follow naturally. So the real argument is about the meaning of the word. There's been plenty written on the topic, including the linked article, which you seem to reject. I may be missing a better link elsewhere on the page, but the only "article" I see is one person's biased top-ten list inspired by a self-help book. You'll see a big difference between the Google results for introversion and the results for extro- or extraversion. There's a whole lot of boosterism and self-help content for introversion, but not for extroversion. I like some of it, but honestly, I think most of it can be ignored. We should know when we're being pandered to.
PixelRobot 15y ago
I've noticed that most extroverts think like this. People who are extroverted usually have problems understanding what being introverted is like, and usually just see it as a different label to give social anxiety a more socially acceptable image, since it seems it's easier to understand for them. They assume everybody is an extrovert, just like them, but some people just feel social anxiety and call themselves extroverts. What you call "the traditional use" seems to me like the traditional misconception about introverts. I'm an introvert myself, and I don't feel social anxiety. I grew up thinking I was shy, since my introversion seemed to be traditionally and socially identified with shyness, but at one point I realized I didn't feel social anxiety at all. It actually seemed to me that extrovert were much more worried about social situations and how they were perceived socially than me. I don't try to explain my introversion to extroverts because I've noticed most of them don't get it. This makes it hard to use as an excuse, or even as a reasonable reason for your behaviour. I get dragged to social situations sometimes because extroverted people just assume I'll have fun if I just relax a bit, and sometimes I accept because I don't want to be rude. The result is I don't feel anxious or anything like that, I just get bored fast and want to go home soon. If I were actually interested in some activity being an introvert wouldn't get in the way, because being interested in it would keep my interest. It's just that social activities don't usually keep my interest for too long. They just feel like a boring waste of time to me, not something that makes me anxious. This doesn't mean I don't enjoy social situations sometimes. I enjoy parties and concerts and stuff like that. I'm just the kind of guy who leaves the party early with some kind of excuse, not because of social anxiety, but because I'm starting to get tired and bored with the whole thing. I don't ever use "I'm an introvert" as an excuse, since I know people will not get it. I don't use it and I don't see other people use it to explain why they do certain things or don't do other things.

by dkarl 15y ago

andywood 15y ago

You're still doing it. Introversion is not social anxiety. I am categorically an introvert. I do not suffer in the slightest from social anxiety - I'm perfectly comfortable in crowds and most social situations. What you're doing in this comment and the one above is simply displaying ignorance of what introversion means. And just because most laypeople have an inaccurate idea of what the word "introverted" means does not mean that it doesn't have a fairly well-defined technical meaning.

dkarl 15y ago
I'm not ignorant of what you think introversion is. I learned it reading your first comment. Like I said elsewhere, the argument here is about what the word actually means. Jung says introverts experience emotional drain when they're around other people, so by his definition, if you are comfortable being around large groups of people for any length of time, then you are not an introvert. Instead of just insisting that I accept your definition of the word, try persuading me.
- andywood 15y ago
  It isn't my definition. There's a fairly coherent consensus view of the salient points of the intro/extra dichotomy. You're distorting it. For example, the first half of your sentence beginning "Jung" is correct, but the second half is gross exaggeration. Other people aren't Kryptonite. That's what's wrong with your top post as well - it's full of exaggeration which misrepresents introversion. There's been plenty written on the topic, including the linked article, which you seem to reject.
  - dkarl 15y ago
    There's a fairly coherent consensus view of the salient points of the intro/extra dichotomy Not at all. First of all, introversion was a concept long before psychologists started to get technical with it. Second, its appeal as a psychological concept is mostly to laymen like us, and it certainly isn't used in any technical sense when people write blog posts about how great introverts are. So even without citing any disagreements among psychologists, there's a question of whether we should go with a some psychologist's technical meaning or the meaning in popular usage. In popular usage, you can see disagreement here on this page. One way to see how a word is used is Google: http://philosophy.lander.edu/ethics/jung.html http://philosophy.lander.edu/ethics/jung.html: "Weakness of the introverted attitude includes ... (1) a lack confidence in relation to people and things and (2) a tendency to be unsociable, shy, and hesitant." Don't worry, his list of weaknesses for extraversion is bigger ;-) http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/genpsytraits.html http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/genpsytraits.html: "The more obvious aspects of introversion are shyness, a distaste for social functions, and a love of privacy." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion: "Introversion does not describe social discomfort but rather social preference: an introvert may not be shy but may merely prefer less social activities." Good ol' Wikipedia, the voice of the people ;-) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/introvert http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/introvert: "1. a shy person. 2. Psychology . a person characterized by concern primarily with his or her own thoughts and feelings ( opposed to extrovert)." Funny how dictionaries list multiple definitions for words. Clearly they're all wrong except one! Here's a nice quote from Jung himself about the "extreme" introvert (gathered from this page: http://www.infj.com/INFJ_Introversion.htm http://www.infj.com/INFJ_Introversion.htm): "In a large gathering he feels lonely and lost. The more crowded it is, the greater becomes his resistance. He is not in the least 'with it,' and has no love of enthusiastic get-togethers. He is not a good mixer. What he does, he does in his own way, barricading himself against influences from outside. . . . Under normal conditions he is pessimistic and worried, because the world and human beings are not in the least good but crush him. . . ." Wow, that's a downer. You'll find more ammunition for yourself than for me on that page, though, as apparently psychologists have tried to empirically distinguish shyness, introversion, neuroticism, embarrassability, public shyness, private shyness, and sociability. Naturally in order to fit all those in as distinct concepts they've had to define them quite narrowly as aspects of personality instead of sticking to the broader idea of introversion as a "type." However, on that page the immediate followup to the Jung quote I quoted (not by Jung, and possibly not referring to his views) is this: "In less extreme cases, introverts are simply more conservative than not, preferring the familiar surroundings of home and intimate times with a few close friends; they husband their energy and would rather stay put than go from place to place." I think that characterization would be contested as well. So no, there is no coherent consensus. You can see all over this page as well that many of the arguments made here take the same form: accept my definition of "introvert", and my conclusions follow naturally. So the real argument is about the meaning of the word. There's been plenty written on the topic, including the linked article, which you seem to reject. I may be missing a better link elsewhere on the page, but the only "article" I see is one person's biased top-ten list inspired by a self-help book. You'll see a big difference between the Google results for introversion and the results for extro- or extraversion. There's a whole lot of boosterism and self-help content for introversion, but not for extroversion. I like some of it, but honestly, I think most of it can be ignored. We should know when we're being pandered to.

PixelRobot 15y ago

I've noticed that most extroverts think like this. People who are extroverted usually have problems understanding what being introverted is like, and usually just see it as a different label to give social anxiety a more socially acceptable image, since it seems it's easier to understand for them. They assume everybody is an extrovert, just like them, but some people just feel social anxiety and call themselves extroverts. What you call "the traditional use" seems to me like the traditional misconception about introverts. I'm an introvert myself, and I don't feel social anxiety. I grew up thinking I was shy, since my introversion seemed to be traditionally and socially identified with shyness, but at one point I realized I didn't feel social anxiety at all. It actually seemed to me that extrovert were much more worried about social situations and how they were perceived socially than me. I don't try to explain my introversion to extroverts because I've noticed most of them don't get it. This makes it hard to use as an excuse, or even as a reasonable reason for your behaviour. I get dragged to social situations sometimes because extroverted people just assume I'll have fun if I just relax a bit, and sometimes I accept because I don't want to be rude. The result is I don't feel anxious or anything like that, I just get bored fast and want to go home soon. If I were actually interested in some activity being an introvert wouldn't get in the way, because being interested in it would keep my interest. It's just that social activities don't usually keep my interest for too long. They just feel like a boring waste of time to me, not something that makes me anxious. This doesn't mean I don't enjoy social situations sometimes. I enjoy parties and concerts and stuff like that. I'm just the kind of guy who leaves the party early with some kind of excuse, not because of social anxiety, but because I'm starting to get tired and bored with the whole thing. I don't ever use "I'm an introvert" as an excuse, since I know people will not get it. I don't use it and I don't see other people use it to explain why they do certain things or don't do other things.