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I worked at a bank for many years and I've dealt with union employees that perform building maintenance. I've been told aggressively by members that I am no all

by bko 6y ago

I worked at a bank for many years and I've dealt with union employees that perform building maintenance. I've been told aggressively by members that I am no allowed move my monitor or computer without scheduling it through the union. One guy even said that we were not allowed to plug in cell phone chargers in without approval. My experience with the union didn't leave me thinking "this is an organizational structure I want to be part of". Sure they get paid relatively well, but it breeds a bizarre territorial environment. I also look at teacher unions as holding back vital innovations such as longer school days and shorter breaks, which disproportionately hurt the most vulnerable in society.

jariel 6y ago
"union didn't leave me thinking "this is an organizational structure I want to be part of"" If you're being paid $40/hour to move monitors and your alternative is serving coffee, you definitely 'want to be part of that org'. Those are the #1 orgs that 'regular people' want to be a part of. I'm not saying anything for or against unions, rather, highlighting the perspective of many of those on the other side.
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
I mostly agree with you. But I'm not sure that longer school days are the answer.
- lumost 6y ago
  Current school days are an artifact of pre-industrial agrarian culture. It's highly unlikely that summers off, or having kids leave for school 2-3 hours before their parents leave for work is the best organization. Ideally I'd like my kid to have school time similar to my working hours with before/after-school activities to fill time. Simply creating block time for students to work on homework/essays would likely improve education outcomes for many students.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    You're looking at it from the point of view of the structure of society. From that perspective, you have a reasonable point. But I'm thinking in terms of what children can take. I'm not sure a seven-year-old needs to work an eight-hour day. (I like the idea of leaving time for kids to do their "homework" while at school, though.)
    - acwan93 6y ago
      But children wouldn't necessarily be learning in a classroom the entire day. Even today there's a bunch of extracurriculars (band practice, sports, etc.) that occur between dismissal up until dinnertime. If these "after schools" or "buxibans" (as I grew up around) became integrated into the school system itself that seems the most ideal. It would certainly kill off a secondary market of cram classes, for better or for worse. Homework might not even be a thing at that point since they could just do it at school, as you mentioned.
  - t-writescode 6y ago
    If you would like your children to be cared for for longer than 8 hours a day, and it seems that you do, then we're going to need 2 shifts of the kids being watched, and we're going to need to pay for that. Requiring employees to work longer hours is a bad look. The 40-hour-max work week was won with blood. (edit: by unions, funny enough).
jedmeyers 6y ago
> I am no allowed move my monitor or computer without scheduling it through the union How about union workers call you next time they want to install a new app on their phones?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
goldenManatee 6y ago
I would question how much this is also a function of the company or industry in which the union operates. Maybe the company the union negotiated with stipulated such terms, or the union enforces those kind of rules out of an abundance of caution to protect its members. Asking why is more useful.
- aksss 6y ago
  There is a weird dynamic there. IME, IT workers where unionized are often grafted into an existing labor union that operates in a trade space like electric or something, rarely with any institutional experience in the IT industry. They bring their own ideas about division of labor or consult with the brain trust that invited them in, so you get some interesting ideas calcified into multi-year agreements. A company doesn’t get to pick which union represents their employees.
gamblor956 6y ago
I've been told aggressively by members that I am no allowed move my monitor or computer without scheduling it through the union Requiring permission to move the computer doesn't seem nonsensical. Computer placements may have been coordinated with IT for maintenance and access reasons of the employee using the computer and all employees that may need to service the device or access the area in which the computer is located. For example, in a quad-style arrangement (common in many open-office arrangements with cubicles), the PCs are usually located in the center of the quad to minimize cabling so that maintenance can vacuum under the desks without accidentally snagging power/data cables. One guy even said that we were not allowed to plug in cell phone chargers in without approval. At my last job, people used to plug in a bunch of crap into the electrical outlets all the time. The building, which was an older building converted into an open-space office, did not have the electrical wiring to support everything that was plugged in, and consequently many fuses were blown. One cell phone charger might not seem like a lot, but it might be the one straw to many for that particular part of the building's electrical grid. I also look at teacher unions as holding back vital innovations such as longer school days and shorter breaks, which disproportionately hurt the most vulnerable in society. Teachers unions are fine with longer school days and shorter breaks. As long as they get paid for them. K12 teachers (in CA) start their workdays at 7a, so the "standard" 8 hour day for them ends at 3pm (4pm if including an hour break for lunch, which is common for hourly workers but not salaried workers). Requiring them to work until 5pm, i.e., when parents get out, would effectively be adding 10 hours a week of overtime to their schedule.
- BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 6y ago
  Longer school days = keeping the kids bored out of their skulls for even longer. Oh yeah, I taught IT at a community college for a few years (and paid union dues for not even a newsletter). Teaching, even to adults, is hard work and you're only good for a few hours a day. Full time and sessional faculty had 12 contact hours a day. Then there's prep, marking, student counseling, committees... I have no idea how elementary teachers get through a day.
Turing_Machine 6y ago
Buckminster Fuller used to tell the story of arriving in a city to give a talk only to be informed that he was required to hire two union stagehands. "But I just talk. I don't need stagehands." "Either you hire them, or your event gets canceled." Fuller went back to his hotel, called up a piano rental company, and had two grand pianos delivered to the venue. Then, while giving his multi-hour-long lecture, he would pause every five minutes or so and say "Now, I need that piano moved over there, and that piano moved over there."
- lovegoblin 6y ago
  This sounds like someone who yells at the cashier as though they're the one that makes the rules.
  - Turing_Machine 6y ago
    Their job was moving stuff. He was was being forced to pay for them to move stuff. So he got them some stuff to move. How does that count as "yelling at the cashier"? He wasn't yelling at them at all. He just made sure they did the job for which they were getting paid.
    - lovegoblin 6y ago
      My point is that this rule surely exists for some reason - even if (if) the enforcement of it in this specific case is kind of silly - and it strikes me as petty to take out one's frustration with that on two people who don't have any immediate method of changing that. It's just not a good look.
      - Turing_Machine 6y ago
        Yeah, and the reason it exists is so stagehands get paid even if they don't have to do any work. Sorry it didn't work out for them that time.
sjg007 6y ago
I have to request a chair and monitor through my IT department. I mean jeez really sucks.

by bko 6y ago

jariel 6y ago

"union didn't leave me thinking "this is an organizational structure I want to be part of"" If you're being paid $40/hour to move monitors and your alternative is serving coffee, you definitely 'want to be part of that org'. Those are the #1 orgs that 'regular people' want to be a part of. I'm not saying anything for or against unions, rather, highlighting the perspective of many of those on the other side.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

I mostly agree with you. But I'm not sure that longer school days are the answer.

lumost 6y ago
Current school days are an artifact of pre-industrial agrarian culture. It's highly unlikely that summers off, or having kids leave for school 2-3 hours before their parents leave for work is the best organization. Ideally I'd like my kid to have school time similar to my working hours with before/after-school activities to fill time. Simply creating block time for students to work on homework/essays would likely improve education outcomes for many students.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  You're looking at it from the point of view of the structure of society. From that perspective, you have a reasonable point. But I'm thinking in terms of what children can take. I'm not sure a seven-year-old needs to work an eight-hour day. (I like the idea of leaving time for kids to do their "homework" while at school, though.)
  - acwan93 6y ago
    But children wouldn't necessarily be learning in a classroom the entire day. Even today there's a bunch of extracurriculars (band practice, sports, etc.) that occur between dismissal up until dinnertime. If these "after schools" or "buxibans" (as I grew up around) became integrated into the school system itself that seems the most ideal. It would certainly kill off a secondary market of cram classes, for better or for worse. Homework might not even be a thing at that point since they could just do it at school, as you mentioned.
- t-writescode 6y ago
  If you would like your children to be cared for for longer than 8 hours a day, and it seems that you do, then we're going to need 2 shifts of the kids being watched, and we're going to need to pay for that. Requiring employees to work longer hours is a bad look. The 40-hour-max work week was won with blood. (edit: by unions, funny enough).

jedmeyers 6y ago

> I am no allowed move my monitor or computer without scheduling it through the union How about union workers call you next time they want to install a new app on their phones?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

goldenManatee 6y ago

I would question how much this is also a function of the company or industry in which the union operates. Maybe the company the union negotiated with stipulated such terms, or the union enforces those kind of rules out of an abundance of caution to protect its members. Asking why is more useful.

aksss 6y ago
There is a weird dynamic there. IME, IT workers where unionized are often grafted into an existing labor union that operates in a trade space like electric or something, rarely with any institutional experience in the IT industry. They bring their own ideas about division of labor or consult with the brain trust that invited them in, so you get some interesting ideas calcified into multi-year agreements. A company doesn’t get to pick which union represents their employees.

gamblor956 6y ago

I've been told aggressively by members that I am no allowed move my monitor or computer without scheduling it through the union Requiring permission to move the computer doesn't seem nonsensical. Computer placements may have been coordinated with IT for maintenance and access reasons of the employee using the computer and all employees that may need to service the device or access the area in which the computer is located. For example, in a quad-style arrangement (common in many open-office arrangements with cubicles), the PCs are usually located in the center of the quad to minimize cabling so that maintenance can vacuum under the desks without accidentally snagging power/data cables. One guy even said that we were not allowed to plug in cell phone chargers in without approval. At my last job, people used to plug in a bunch of crap into the electrical outlets all the time. The building, which was an older building converted into an open-space office, did not have the electrical wiring to support everything that was plugged in, and consequently many fuses were blown. One cell phone charger might not seem like a lot, but it might be the one straw to many for that particular part of the building's electrical grid. I also look at teacher unions as holding back vital innovations such as longer school days and shorter breaks, which disproportionately hurt the most vulnerable in society. Teachers unions are fine with longer school days and shorter breaks. As long as they get paid for them. K12 teachers (in CA) start their workdays at 7a, so the "standard" 8 hour day for them ends at 3pm (4pm if including an hour break for lunch, which is common for hourly workers but not salaried workers). Requiring them to work until 5pm, i.e., when parents get out, would effectively be adding 10 hours a week of overtime to their schedule.

BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 6y ago
Longer school days = keeping the kids bored out of their skulls for even longer. Oh yeah, I taught IT at a community college for a few years (and paid union dues for not even a newsletter). Teaching, even to adults, is hard work and you're only good for a few hours a day. Full time and sessional faculty had 12 contact hours a day. Then there's prep, marking, student counseling, committees... I have no idea how elementary teachers get through a day.

Turing_Machine 6y ago

Buckminster Fuller used to tell the story of arriving in a city to give a talk only to be informed that he was required to hire two union stagehands. "But I just talk. I don't need stagehands." "Either you hire them, or your event gets canceled." Fuller went back to his hotel, called up a piano rental company, and had two grand pianos delivered to the venue. Then, while giving his multi-hour-long lecture, he would pause every five minutes or so and say "Now, I need that piano moved over there, and that piano moved over there."

lovegoblin 6y ago
This sounds like someone who yells at the cashier as though they're the one that makes the rules.
- Turing_Machine 6y ago
  Their job was moving stuff. He was was being forced to pay for them to move stuff. So he got them some stuff to move. How does that count as "yelling at the cashier"? He wasn't yelling at them at all. He just made sure they did the job for which they were getting paid.
  - lovegoblin 6y ago
    My point is that this rule surely exists for some reason - even if (if) the enforcement of it in this specific case is kind of silly - and it strikes me as petty to take out one's frustration with that on two people who don't have any immediate method of changing that. It's just not a good look.
    - Turing_Machine 6y ago
      Yeah, and the reason it exists is so stagehands get paid even if they don't have to do any work. Sorry it didn't work out for them that time.

sjg007 6y ago

I have to request a chair and monitor through my IT department. I mean jeez really sucks.