6 ms·

> My interest in free or open source software has never been either political or industrial. My interest has always been educational. That is, access to the sou

by cwyers 6y ago

> My interest in free or open source software has never been either political or industrial. My interest has always been educational. That is, access to the source code provided the opportunity to learn from it. So, in the same spirit as the Open Source / Free Software distinction, I coined the term Liberal Software to refer to software where the intent of the programmer is educational (liberal as in education). Any one of these three intents can produce software for which the source code is available — and that is often called FLOSS, meaning Free, Liberal, or Open Source Software. As far as I can tell, the L in "FLOSS" is typically "libre," not "Liberal." I feel like the author is vastly and misleadingly inflating his relevance in this post.

boomboomsubban 6y ago
Searching "free liberal open source software" basically just returns sites that copied Wikipedia's FOSS page that calls it a counter to neoliberalism.
Layke1123 6y ago
Wait you support FOSS because of education? I wonder how you feel about college education and student debt then...
- genericone 6y ago
  ">" fyi means the the following paragraph is a quote, just in case you missed it.
  - Layke1123 6y ago
    Why do I need to quote it? It's right above.
    - adament 6y ago
      They are explaining to you that in the post you replied to, the part prefixed “>” was a quote from the article and your original post reads as if you thought that part was an expression of the comment authors opinion. The only part of the post you replied to that was not from the article was: > As far as I can tell, the L in "FLOSS" is typically "libre," not "Liberal." I feel like the author is vastly and misleadingly inflating his relevance in this post.
      - Layke1123 6y ago
        Ahh I replied to the wrong thread. I meant to reply to the parent thread but the point still stands imo.
- Layke1123 6y ago
  I dare one person to actually articulate their response if they downvoted.
rapnie 6y ago
> Today’s topic is political software. Indeed. And the article is playing dirty politics, imho. The L in "FLOSS" means Libre to me too. The only way I have ever seen it used. Redefining its common meaning is disingenious. Call the alternative FLIBERO or something.. free, liberal, open. And build your story around that. If people like it, it may gain traction. And otherwise.. too bad. But don't hijack existing acronyms like this. (OT: Hijacking terminology happens more often by big tech. The other day I came upon a great example, but forgot. But terms like "serverless" are example, meaning 'servers abstracted away by The Cloud')
- vorticalbox 6y ago
  I believed that the L meant libre but libre when translated from Spanish to English literly translates as 'free' So in floss, that would be free free open source software. Which doesn't seem right? Unless there is another meaning to libre I'm missing?
  - ohthehugemanate 6y ago
    It's to disambiguate the english uses of the word "free." It's free as in freedom, not free as in beer. Libre (in French, as it is used in the acronym) only means the former.
    - vorticalbox 6y ago
      That makes more sense thanks.
    - darkwater 6y ago
      In Spanish as well, because the other meaning of the English "free" (as in free beer) is translated as "gratis", which comes straight from Latin.
      - agustif 6y ago
        It seems the oxford dictionary also has an entry for -gratis- in the english language (middle-age from the same latin origin, as -late middle english- Interesting!
kergonath 6y ago
Yeah, and “FLOSS” is just an example of that. The whole text is painfully self-aggrandising with no real insight.
bumbada 6y ago
Liberal actually comes from "Libre" that means "free", as in Freedom. Liberal as in education, comes from "liberal arts", that were those arts that were not necessary for surviving but were typical of Free men's education(Aristocracy first, bourgeoisie later). Liberal is actually an overloaded adjective that could mean: liberal as in non orthodoxy(not subjected to dogma) like in sex politics or religion. Or economic freedom. But in the US, "liberals" in politics are actually another dogmatic cult(that probably see themselves as non dogmatic) So it is quite confusing term to use.
- jay_kyburz 6y ago
  The Liberal Party in Australia is from the conservative side of the house, so those on the left call themselves Progressives.
  - gpvos 6y ago
    In the Netherlands, we have both a conservative-liberal and a progressive-liberal party, which are currently the largest and second-largest parties. The first is clearly part of the right, the second portrays itself as centrist but is considered by many to lean to the left (I'm simplifying).
    - rob74 6y ago
      I think the issue is that there are "economically liberal" politics (= free market above everything else) and "socially liberal" politics (e.g. pro gay marriage etc.). In the US, these are split between the Republicans (more economically liberal) and Democrats (more socially liberal). The party which is radically liberal in both senses is the (very small) Libertarian Party.
mro_name 6y ago
indeed, I'm not native speaking, but is - 'Thirdly, the rhetoric of Free Software devotees is awkward and unconvincing.' - 'devotee' respectful rhetoric? Isn't that, well, awkward and unconvincing?
hkt 6y ago
Yep, it is libre, so as to invoke "free as in freedom" rather than "free as in beer"
baybal2 6y ago
Robert, the author, has a very twisty tongue. Twisting meanings, and (his) intents.
Mauricebranagh 6y ago
Yes a bit of a dog whistle given the current use of "liberal" in the USA
tremon 6y ago
(liberal as in education) I don't understand. What definition of "liberal" has a meaning in education?
- zabzonk 6y ago
  https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Liberal_education https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Liberal_education
npsimons 6y ago
The author is quite clearly an ignoramus on the topic of FLOSS, and can be safely ignored. I'm not sure how this got to the front page of HN. It's embarrassing, frankly.
syshum 6y ago
Well he does claim advocacy for social justice and other authoritarian left political ideologies, it is common practice in those circles to refine terms to meet their political objectives so it is not shocking he would attempt to redefine FLOSS to meet his political needs
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
necovek 6y ago
From the OP: > Caring about who gets the credit more than successfully creating change is not a good look. So yeah, the author is disingenuous at best. Another point where they pretend not to see the benefits: Free Software and specifically copyleft has succeeded in getting so many manufacturers to publish their kernel source code, opening the door for bringing more freedom to a bunch of people using their technological devices today (eg. all the ROMs for phones and IoT devices). And the attempt to highlight the "metonymy" (you know they are bullshitting as soon as they start using terms unfamiliar to the masses) in "free press" but argue against "free software" standing for "software that can be freely used" is very hypocritical too. Righto, who is this "the speech" in "free speech" (alluding to their use of "the software" group). I've given up reading at that point because it's a post by someone bitter focusing on an unproven premise (how a political ideology has failed if there is no change in leadership for more than 10 years — maybe it's because centralised leadership is not necessary to achieve it ;-)). Anyway, language is free for people to adapt to their needs, and no amount of elitist grammatical nitpicking will ever change that.

by cwyers 6y ago

boomboomsubban 6y ago

Searching "free liberal open source software" basically just returns sites that copied Wikipedia's FOSS page that calls it a counter to neoliberalism.

Layke1123 6y ago

Wait you support FOSS because of education? I wonder how you feel about college education and student debt then...

genericone 6y ago
">" fyi means the the following paragraph is a quote, just in case you missed it.
- Layke1123 6y ago
  Why do I need to quote it? It's right above.
  - adament 6y ago
    They are explaining to you that in the post you replied to, the part prefixed “>” was a quote from the article and your original post reads as if you thought that part was an expression of the comment authors opinion. The only part of the post you replied to that was not from the article was: > As far as I can tell, the L in "FLOSS" is typically "libre," not "Liberal." I feel like the author is vastly and misleadingly inflating his relevance in this post.
    - Layke1123 6y ago
      Ahh I replied to the wrong thread. I meant to reply to the parent thread but the point still stands imo.
Layke1123 6y ago
I dare one person to actually articulate their response if they downvoted.

rapnie 6y ago

> Today’s topic is political software. Indeed. And the article is playing dirty politics, imho. The L in "FLOSS" means Libre to me too. The only way I have ever seen it used. Redefining its common meaning is disingenious. Call the alternative FLIBERO or something.. free, liberal, open. And build your story around that. If people like it, it may gain traction. And otherwise.. too bad. But don't hijack existing acronyms like this. (OT: Hijacking terminology happens more often by big tech. The other day I came upon a great example, but forgot. But terms like "serverless" are example, meaning 'servers abstracted away by The Cloud')

vorticalbox 6y ago
I believed that the L meant libre but libre when translated from Spanish to English literly translates as 'free' So in floss, that would be free free open source software. Which doesn't seem right? Unless there is another meaning to libre I'm missing?
- ohthehugemanate 6y ago
  It's to disambiguate the english uses of the word "free." It's free as in freedom, not free as in beer. Libre (in French, as it is used in the acronym) only means the former.
  - vorticalbox 6y ago
    That makes more sense thanks.
  - darkwater 6y ago
    In Spanish as well, because the other meaning of the English "free" (as in free beer) is translated as "gratis", which comes straight from Latin.
    - agustif 6y ago
      It seems the oxford dictionary also has an entry for -gratis- in the english language (middle-age from the same latin origin, as -late middle english- Interesting!

kergonath 6y ago

Yeah, and “FLOSS” is just an example of that. The whole text is painfully self-aggrandising with no real insight.

bumbada 6y ago

Liberal actually comes from "Libre" that means "free", as in Freedom. Liberal as in education, comes from "liberal arts", that were those arts that were not necessary for surviving but were typical of Free men's education(Aristocracy first, bourgeoisie later). Liberal is actually an overloaded adjective that could mean: liberal as in non orthodoxy(not subjected to dogma) like in sex politics or religion. Or economic freedom. But in the US, "liberals" in politics are actually another dogmatic cult(that probably see themselves as non dogmatic) So it is quite confusing term to use.

jay_kyburz 6y ago
The Liberal Party in Australia is from the conservative side of the house, so those on the left call themselves Progressives.
- gpvos 6y ago
  In the Netherlands, we have both a conservative-liberal and a progressive-liberal party, which are currently the largest and second-largest parties. The first is clearly part of the right, the second portrays itself as centrist but is considered by many to lean to the left (I'm simplifying).
  - rob74 6y ago
    I think the issue is that there are "economically liberal" politics (= free market above everything else) and "socially liberal" politics (e.g. pro gay marriage etc.). In the US, these are split between the Republicans (more economically liberal) and Democrats (more socially liberal). The party which is radically liberal in both senses is the (very small) Libertarian Party.

mro_name 6y ago

indeed, I'm not native speaking, but is - 'Thirdly, the rhetoric of Free Software devotees is awkward and unconvincing.' - 'devotee' respectful rhetoric? Isn't that, well, awkward and unconvincing?

hkt 6y ago

Yep, it is libre, so as to invoke "free as in freedom" rather than "free as in beer"

baybal2 6y ago

Robert, the author, has a very twisty tongue. Twisting meanings, and (his) intents.

Mauricebranagh 6y ago

Yes a bit of a dog whistle given the current use of "liberal" in the USA

tremon 6y ago

(liberal as in education) I don't understand. What definition of "liberal" has a meaning in education?

zabzonk 6y ago
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Liberal_education https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Liberal_education

npsimons 6y ago

The author is quite clearly an ignoramus on the topic of FLOSS, and can be safely ignored. I'm not sure how this got to the front page of HN. It's embarrassing, frankly.

syshum 6y ago

Well he does claim advocacy for social justice and other authoritarian left political ideologies, it is common practice in those circles to refine terms to meet their political objectives so it is not shocking he would attempt to redefine FLOSS to meet his political needs

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

necovek 6y ago

From the OP: > Caring about who gets the credit more than successfully creating change is not a good look. So yeah, the author is disingenuous at best. Another point where they pretend not to see the benefits: Free Software and specifically copyleft has succeeded in getting so many manufacturers to publish their kernel source code, opening the door for bringing more freedom to a bunch of people using their technological devices today (eg. all the ROMs for phones and IoT devices). And the attempt to highlight the "metonymy" (you know they are bullshitting as soon as they start using terms unfamiliar to the masses) in "free press" but argue against "free software" standing for "software that can be freely used" is very hypocritical too. Righto, who is this "the speech" in "free speech" (alluding to their use of "the software" group). I've given up reading at that point because it's a post by someone bitter focusing on an unproven premise (how a political ideology has failed if there is no change in leadership for more than 10 years — maybe it's because centralised leadership is not necessary to achieve it ;-)). Anyway, language is free for people to adapt to their needs, and no amount of elitist grammatical nitpicking will ever change that.