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> it would be good investment for Apple, Google, or Microsoft to get into fabbing stuff for themselves and others just on the basis of being able to outcompete

> it would be good investment for Apple, Google, or Microsoft to get into fabbing stuff for themselves and others just on the basis of being able to outcompete everyone else in operational efficiency. They can try... Surely they have cash, and so did the Chinese who were signing 10 digit cheques for anybody claiming to be able to setup a modern fab. Running a fab is not like running a cat video website, or making a cookie cutter electronics from reference designs. On other hand, if there is a company which can turn off the lights on a dotcom companies like them, it will be a big fab business. TSMC's Morris Chang's integrity, and softness, completely uncharacteristic to the big ambition, ego, and testosterone-driver semi industry, were what made TSMC stood out. Dirty play in the semi industry was everywhere in nineties. People who are taking over TSMC from Chang may not share his adherence to morals bordering on altruism. P.S. Saying what that industry was is by no means a meme. Early silicon valley businesses would've given a heart attack to any modern politically correct business exec. Stuff like this was rather common: https://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/national-ad.jpg https://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/blog/wp-content/uplo... https://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/102695454-03-01.jpg https://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/blog/wp-content/uplo... Just read some memories of Fairchild Semi "alums." Stories of men from semiconductor companies stealing each other's wives in the most literal sense, gallons of expensive liquors, contraband Cuban cigars, break-ins into labs, and fisticuffs at business meetings were the world of the valley back then.

pwdisswordfish0 6y ago
> Running a fab is not like running a cat video website, or making a cookie cutter electronics from reference designs. You're squaring up against a stickman. The companies cited are not fly-by-night startups "running a cat video website". Dave Cutler got his start on the factory floor, working out better processes for a toilet paper manufacturer. Apple has plenty of hardware chops and the vertical integration bug. Google shook up telecoms by scaring the shit out of the industry incumbents (although they could have stood to get their hands dirtier, Cutler-style[1], and stay in the game). Although none of this is necessary. The fruit hangs so low here that all it would take is someone half competent who can see the enormous gains to be had by just not doing so many things in the dumbest way possible. This isn't bleeding edge stuff. We're talking catching up on things that that wouldn't even be considered state-of-the-art 25 years ago. Hell, they could start just by drastically cutting back on how many hires they source from the defense industry and have had their minds warped by (and numb to) the bureaucracy and bottomless budgets from that world. > if there is a company which can turn off the lights on a dotcom companies like them, it will be a big fab business Not a chance. The semiconductor industry, perversely, has no idea how to put computers to use, and the leadership and organizational structures are aligned against that kind of achievement ever coming from within (or being airdropped in by a leadership hire who cuts across the lanes from another industry) and making the top-down sweeping changes that would be required. 1. https://youtu.be/J2GV_bCfnCw?t=171 https://youtu.be/J2GV_bCfnCw?t=171
- baybal2 6y ago
  > Not a chance. The semiconductor industry, perversely, has no idea how to put computers to use, and the leadership and organizational structures are aligned against that kind of achievement ever coming from within (or being airdropped in by a leadership hire who cuts across the lanes from another industry) and making the necessary top-down sweeping changes). I've seen attitudes like this in the industry many times, and every time such "bright idea man" comes, a previously well faring company dies. Take a look at Sun Micro, people now will never believe that they once had ambitions to "corner" the server/internet market the very same way those bright "financial strategist" boys suggesting chip companies to "go undercut this, and that, and we will own the Internet!"
  - pwdisswordfish0 6y ago
    > every time such "bright idea man" comes You're ignoring everything I'm saying. (Probably because you don't want to consider the idea that emperor really isn't wearing any spiffy new clothes.) We're not talking about bright ideas. We're talking about dumb, dead simple ideas. Dumber than UPS's fabled "let's try to minimize how much time we waste on left turns". Go watch that Dave Cutler clip and pay attention to what he says near the end of the video about being a leader and about there being no task too small when it comes to getting the job done.
    - perl4ever 6y ago
      "let's try to minimize how much time we waste on left turns" A tangent, but I would really like Google Maps, or some viable substitute to permit "only right turns" as an option. There are routes where every time it wants me to make a left onto a busy highway from a side street with no traffic light. Knowing where the lights are would be one solution, but "only right turns" wouldn't depend on data.
hjiofdgojhi5489 6y ago
>...stealing each other's wives in the most literal sense... ...With four guys in balaclavas and a van?
nl 6y ago
I don't understand what most of this post has to do with the second part. > Early silicon valley businesses would've given a heart attack to any modern politically correct business exec. Stuff like this was rather common: Ads like that... seem fairly mild? I mean this "engage the <poop emoji> out of your users" billboard seems more offensive: https://www.adstasher.com/2017/05/funny-new-emojis-billboards-pop-up.html https://www.adstasher.com/2017/05/funny-new-emojis-billboard... > Just read some memories of Fairchild Semi "alums." Stories of men from semiconductor companies stealing each other's wives in the most literal sense, gallons of expensive liquors, contraband Cuban cigars, break-ins into labs, and fisticuffs at business meetings were the world of the valley back then Err.. I don't think you've ever been out with sales execs from SV companies. "gallons of expensive liquors" sounds like an average Friday night. > contraband Cuban cigars Of course no one in SV these days does any contraband drugs./s

pwdisswordfish0 6y ago

> Running a fab is not like running a cat video website, or making a cookie cutter electronics from reference designs. You're squaring up against a stickman. The companies cited are not fly-by-night startups "running a cat video website". Dave Cutler got his start on the factory floor, working out better processes for a toilet paper manufacturer. Apple has plenty of hardware chops and the vertical integration bug. Google shook up telecoms by scaring the shit out of the industry incumbents (although they could have stood to get their hands dirtier, Cutler-style[1], and stay in the game). Although none of this is necessary. The fruit hangs so low here that all it would take is someone half competent who can see the enormous gains to be had by just not doing so many things in the dumbest way possible. This isn't bleeding edge stuff. We're talking catching up on things that that wouldn't even be considered state-of-the-art 25 years ago. Hell, they could start just by drastically cutting back on how many hires they source from the defense industry and have had their minds warped by (and numb to) the bureaucracy and bottomless budgets from that world. > if there is a company which can turn off the lights on a dotcom companies like them, it will be a big fab business Not a chance. The semiconductor industry, perversely, has no idea how to put computers to use, and the leadership and organizational structures are aligned against that kind of achievement ever coming from within (or being airdropped in by a leadership hire who cuts across the lanes from another industry) and making the top-down sweeping changes that would be required. 1. https://youtu.be/J2GV_bCfnCw?t=171 https://youtu.be/J2GV_bCfnCw?t=171

baybal2 6y ago
> Not a chance. The semiconductor industry, perversely, has no idea how to put computers to use, and the leadership and organizational structures are aligned against that kind of achievement ever coming from within (or being airdropped in by a leadership hire who cuts across the lanes from another industry) and making the necessary top-down sweeping changes). I've seen attitudes like this in the industry many times, and every time such "bright idea man" comes, a previously well faring company dies. Take a look at Sun Micro, people now will never believe that they once had ambitions to "corner" the server/internet market the very same way those bright "financial strategist" boys suggesting chip companies to "go undercut this, and that, and we will own the Internet!"
- pwdisswordfish0 6y ago
  > every time such "bright idea man" comes You're ignoring everything I'm saying. (Probably because you don't want to consider the idea that emperor really isn't wearing any spiffy new clothes.) We're not talking about bright ideas. We're talking about dumb, dead simple ideas. Dumber than UPS's fabled "let's try to minimize how much time we waste on left turns". Go watch that Dave Cutler clip and pay attention to what he says near the end of the video about being a leader and about there being no task too small when it comes to getting the job done.
  - perl4ever 6y ago
    "let's try to minimize how much time we waste on left turns" A tangent, but I would really like Google Maps, or some viable substitute to permit "only right turns" as an option. There are routes where every time it wants me to make a left onto a busy highway from a side street with no traffic light. Knowing where the lights are would be one solution, but "only right turns" wouldn't depend on data.

hjiofdgojhi5489 6y ago

>...stealing each other's wives in the most literal sense... ...With four guys in balaclavas and a van?

nl 6y ago

I don't understand what most of this post has to do with the second part. > Early silicon valley businesses would've given a heart attack to any modern politically correct business exec. Stuff like this was rather common: Ads like that... seem fairly mild? I mean this "engage the <poop emoji> out of your users" billboard seems more offensive: https://www.adstasher.com/2017/05/funny-new-emojis-billboards-pop-up.html https://www.adstasher.com/2017/05/funny-new-emojis-billboard... > Just read some memories of Fairchild Semi "alums." Stories of men from semiconductor companies stealing each other's wives in the most literal sense, gallons of expensive liquors, contraband Cuban cigars, break-ins into labs, and fisticuffs at business meetings were the world of the valley back then Err.. I don't think you've ever been out with sales execs from SV companies. "gallons of expensive liquors" sounds like an average Friday night. > contraband Cuban cigars Of course no one in SV these days does any contraband drugs./s