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An open letter in support of RMS being reinstated by the FSF
- mikece 6y agoI fully support RMS being on the FSF board for life. (I also think he would be fantastic making a cameo in a bit part in Disney's Mandalorian series, bitching about "damned proprietary code" used in imperial droids that makes them hard to reprogram but that's another topic for another message board...)
- phasnox 6y agoI find it hard to support a guy that says stuff like this: "There is a perverse movement among women to think that they should carry fetuses with Downs' syndrome to term, rather than abort them and try again. ... Next, people will take thalidomide to demonstrate how they can love babies born without limbs." - RMS
- smoldesu 6y agoWhat does this have to do with his tenure on the FSF?
- phasnox 6y agoNothing at all. But I would understand if people that are part of the FSF would not like to associate with him.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- danans 6y agoLibre software, if it ever becomes the societal norm, is revolutionary in the traditional meaning of that word - turning over the societal order (vs. smartphones which haven't changed the existing societal order much at all), and if you are seeking to create a societal revolution, the words and actions of your leadership matter beyond the immediate domain of your movement. RMS may not have much in terms of money, but he has a lot of influence due to his stature in the libre software movement, and with influence comes responsibility and accountability to those in the movement he started.
- smoldesu 6y agoNot really. It's the Free Software Foundation, not the Free People Foundation. Stallman's only goal has been to develop an ecosystem of free and open software, and his political and personal opinions have never stood in the way of that. His belief that everyone should have access to quality, open software supersedes whatever personal agenda people perceive to be true.
- danans 6y ago> Stallman's only goal has been to develop an ecosystem of free and open software Why is his goal the only one that matters? Is he a prophet, or is he just a guy who created a compelling idea? Should the movement continue to be centered on him as a personality? The FSF movement is by definition far bigger than him, and it can reasonably contain other related goals. Perhaps those with other goals can make peace with keeping him around, perhaps they can't.
- DreamScatter 6y agoIt's his foundation, and you are welcome to start your own foundation promoting your own ideals for software.
- phasnox 6y agoSoftware is made by people.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- ndr 6y agoYou are, of course, free to choose who to support. Does "support RMS being on the FSF board for life" mean supporting him on everything he says, or even suggest supporting him for this quote?
- tpush 6y agoWell, it means supporting the exclusion of every person that feels alienated by Stallman's behavior and publicly stated views. For as long as Stallman's alive. Irrespective of any moral or ethical concerns, keeping Stallman doesn't seem very pragmatic and forward-looking for an organization that is hurting for young blood anyway. A leader should be able to recognize when he's driving people away, and act accordingly.
- Corazoor 6y agoThis might be an unpopular opionion, but anyone who feels that Stallmans antics make him unfit for leading the FSF is also not someone I want have any say in that organizsation. It shows a lack of ability to discern between message and messanger, as well as private and professional opinion. He is the single most consistent arbiter of open source, clinging to views we all here admire; With such a dedication that it is hard to imagine ANYONE, even fictional, who would be better suited for that particular position (head of FSF). Aleniating people is in and of itself not a problem for a leader, it works the same way in any other area: Would you want to attract people to Black Lives Matter who would be alienated by Martin Luther King? Do you really find it problematic that the buddhists don't try to attract people who can't stand the Dalai Lama? Is it really a Problem that the FSF didn't attract people who would critizise Stallman ONLY on points which have no bearing on the mission of the FSF? And the article really makes a great point about how most of that criticism consists of misrepresentation, faulty analysis and double standards. Keeping people like that out of the FSF is not only fine by me, it is absolute paramount to keep it working.
- angry_octet 6y agoOpinions like your are what has kept FSF stuck in 1990s obscurity. Enjoy alienating people and remaining irrelevant while everyone else moves on.
- junippor 6y agoNot tactful, but he has a point. Some people are just fundamentalists (with bad fundamentals).
- PurpleFoxy 6y agoHe is saying what most people are thinking. How many people really do want to have a child with Down syndrome if it can be avoided?
- angry_octet 6y agoIt's an intensely person decision, and no one needs someone like RMS spouting on about what they should do. Once he's no longer involved with leading FSF/GNU he can blather along as much as he likes. This is the cherry on the top: "Next, people will take thalidomide to demonstrate how they can love babies born without limbs." I'm sure all the victims of thalidomide with be pleased at this mockery. FSF doesn't need a chode like RMS.
- yabones 6y agoSomething tells me RMS would never in a million years work with Disney... He's been quite vocal against them for years. * https://stallman.org/notes/2020-jul-oct.html#23_September_2020_(Working_against_womens_rights) https://stallman.org/notes/2020-jul-oct.html#23_September_20... * https://www.stallman.org/archives/2021-jan-apr.html#18_February_2021_(Subsubsubcontracted_gig_workers) https://www.stallman.org/archives/2021-jan-apr.html#18_Febru... * https://www.stallman.org/archives/2018-mar-jun.html#4_March_2018_(Disneyland_wages) https://www.stallman.org/archives/2018-mar-jun.html#4_March_...
- smsm42 6y agoYes, and him being in Disney movie earning money for Disney would only tarnish his image. But one can dream, that in an alternate universe, where pop culture is not wholly owned by reptiloid corporations, there could be the Mandalorian where RMS could play a droid technician muttering about damn proprietary code... and that'd be awesome.
- gaws 6y ago> I also think he would be fantastic making a cameo in a bit part in Disney's Mandalorian series The fact you actually want this is beyond cringe.
- tarboreus 6y agoUse of the word "cringe" is definitely the most "cringe" thing in this thread.
- majkinetor 6y agoFor those that are new to this topic this is quite a good read: - https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- gentleman11 6y agoDoes anybody else find it a little scary to comment on this topic in case they get called out and targeted as well? The well written link posted to “wetheweb” discusses this a bit. Some quotes: > According to the Atlantic, a full 80 percent of Americans believe that “political correctness is a problem in our country.” While today some smear the free speech movement as a “racist dog-whistle” or a “far-right talking point,” it turns out the numbers don’t fit that narrative. Turns out just about everyone thinks we need more free speech. This includes large pluralities of all races (e.g. 75% of African Americans, 87% of Hispanics) and all ages (e.g. 79% of Americans under age 24). > A 2017 poll of 2,300 U.S. adults, found that 71% Americans believe that political correctness has silenced important discussions our society needs to have and 58% of Americans believe the political climate prevents them from sharing their own political beliefs. Edit: Speaking of, somebody is flagging this story (to be clear, not this comment) to keep people from even discussing the topic. As of writing, they succeeded. We need a “this shouldn’t be flagged” button
- gentleman11 6y agoI have never gotten more upvotes so quickly but the only comments are by people who felt comfortable because they disagree. That says something
- enriquto 6y agoThis will not last! The day of the judgement, those of us who voted for your comment will be disclosed, and we will be duly punished for our wrongthink.
- NelsonMinar 6y agoShame on everyone who signs this letter. I personally know two women who've been sexually harassed by this creep. He has no place in leadership.
- ajfjrbfbf 6y agoWhat did he do to them? Touch their hands? Look at them wrongly?
- junon 6y agoSo we should be shameful for basing conclusions on what non-anecdotal information we've been exposed to? I've had such encounters with someone many on HN would know. I don't hold anyone accountable for mentioning their name or talking nicely about them because how could they possibly know what happened behind closed doors?
- japhib 6y agoWhen a person has a critical mass of accusations of sexual assaults, AND they are open about their support (or at least sympathy) for a well-known rapist and pedophile, the accusations start to become more and more plausible.
- smoldesu 6y agoI must be out of the loop on the sexual assault accusations. Is this one of those Twitter-exclusive stories I hear so much about?
- boucher 6y agoChoosing to bring RMS back to the FSF is a guarantee that it becomes even more irrelevant than it already has.
- benatkin 6y agoI support RMS but also believe he should be removed from the board of the FSF a second time. Let's let him continue to advocate for free software and ensure he is able to support himself, but let's also try not to discourage people from participating because they're in fear of being harrassed or excluded. I won't sign either letter, but of the two, I think this one is better. Neither has the right conclusion. The other suggests he be banned from the community entirely. Edit: the other letter has a lot higher caliber of signers. I think there are a lot of influential people in the FLOSS community who haven't signed either though. Perhaps a new letter should be made that is just about removing him from the board of the FSF and from other leadership positions (including the GNU Project).
- smoldesu 6y agoAs little as I like to do this, I think it's important to bring up the "autism" topic, because I see way too many autistic programmers being thrown under the bus for stuff like this. To start, the three smartest programmers I personally know are autistic, and all of them struggle to make sound judgement calls at the drop of a hat. I've seen them lambasted in IRC channels for saying stupid things or slipping up a function name when writing documentation, but every one of them could out-code their harasser at a moments notice. I get the feeling we're in the same boat with RMS, since I've seen his behavior before in neurodivergent programmers: hard-headedness, dedication to a fault, and speaking his mind even when the social repercussions could blow up in his face. His Aspbergers is part of what makes him who he is, and I'd rather have a distastefully transparent board member than a muzzled figurehead. I value Stallman's voice, and I honestly feel bad that his slips are being sensationalized now.
- NelsonMinar 6y agohttps://dev.to/baweaver/the-myth-of-the-autistic-jerk-3kjl https://dev.to/baweaver/the-myth-of-the-autistic-jerk-3kjl
- smoldesu 6y agoI agree with a lot of the stuff being said here, but it's entirely tangential to what I talked about. Our "cancel culture" is more focused on zooming-in on the minutia than the big-picture. I love my autistic friends, and never once would I describe their behavior as mean-spirited or "jerk-like". I treat them with patient respect, and they reciprocate the sentiment. I personally know that 2 of those 3 friends love RMS (haven't asked the third :p), and I fail to see what harm he can cause by rejoining the board. Stallman envisioned a free world, where people can communicate openly and without censorship. When people try to silence him, they're only showing how little they understand his goals. You can love him, you can hate him, but you can never stop him. I personally disagree with many of his opinions, but I fully support him coming back to the FSF. Richard Stallman embodies freedom, so he belongs there, regardless of his political or personal opinions.
- 6y ago
- marcodiego 6y agoRMS failed in his way to communicate with people, he hurt people and there are reports of scared away women. The community failed by not calling him on his mistakes, by not making these publicly clear as early as possible disregarding that he is stubborn but changes his mind when bad stances are explained clearly. His victims should not be blamed, but people around him have to admit there are reasons he is compared to a spoiled child. This has to stop. For his importance and the willingness to defend points of view which may be inconvenient for most people, he is needed in a movement which requires such a level of dedication and sacrifice. I don't believe there is anybody else who is capable living the way he lives just to stand on the very strict ethical side. He is very much needed. Cancel culture should be handled carefully, for punishment should not make people give up on trying to improve. But a group should not silence when bad behavior happens. If rms is to come back caution must be taken. He must be warned at the smallest mistakes, should not be handled as a never wrong semi-god and be encouraged to know when he hurts people and apologize for that. Otherwise the more people and the free software movement will be hurt.
- DreamScatter 6y agoHah, these kind of people are hilarious, as if Richard Stallmann has "victims"... he is not a criminal.
- go561192 6y agoHere's some readings on why many don't want RMS in a leadership position. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21287006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21287006 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20994216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20994216 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26545420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26545420 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535789 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535789 [5] https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-pr... . . Some well-regarded papers on sexism in CS, which are still relevant as is evident from some comments in this thread. [1] Why are There so Few Female Computer Scientists (Ellen Spertus, 1991) https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/7040 https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/7040 [2] How to Encourage Women in Linux (Val Henson, 2002) https://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/ https://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/ [3] What Happens to Us Does Not Happen to Most of You (Kathryn S. McKinley, 2018) https://www.sigarch.org/what-happens-to-us-does-not-happen-to-most-of-you/ https://www.sigarch.org/what-happens-to-us-does-not-happen-t... [4] Unlocking the Clubhouse: Women in Computing (Jane Margolis and Allan Fisher, 2001) https://www.amazon.com/Unlocking-Clubhouse-Women-Computing-Press/dp/0262632691 https://www.amazon.com/Unlocking-Clubhouse-Women-Computing-P... [5] The Elephant in the Valley (by Michele Madansky and Trae Vassallo, 2015) https://www.elephantinthevalley.com/ https://www.elephantinthevalley.com/
- nickthegreek 6y agoWhat's going on with the stained glass/haloe deification of RMS in the profile photo? That alone turns me off from even reading the letter. Its visible in the HN RSS entry and on the main page: https://github.com/rms-support-letter https://github.com/rms-support-letter
- jellicle 6y agoIt's from Stallman himself: https://stallman.org/saint.html https://stallman.org/saint.html
- nickthegreek 6y agoI appreciate you providing the context instead of just downvoting. Alot of this RMS stuff can be difficult to follow for some of us who haven't followed the guys career and are trying to fully understand this story.
- smoldesu 6y agoIt's reminiscent of the /g/ sticky, but I think the image macro goes back much further than that.
- jellicle 6y agoI do love to see people come out with a public statement that says "We believe that a guy who, in public meetings, representing his organization, picks toe cheese from between his toes and consumes it in front of people, is absolutely the right leader for us! We believe that a guy who showers once or twice per year is the best public face for us. Out of all the billions of people on Earth, he's the one!" Takes guts to make a statement like that. Bravo. Here's a link about Stallman for the many HN readers who obviously don't know anything about the guy. I urge you to read it before forming your opinion about "cancel culture". https://daringfireball.net/2019/09/richard_stallmans_disgrace https://daringfireball.net/2019/09/richard_stallmans_disgrac...
- icha 6y agoThat's it? Bad hygiene and awkward attempts at romancing women? Truly, a devil incarnate.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Thiez 6y agoYou don't need to be literally Satan to be a less than ideal for certain positions, especially when they involve represeting a movement or organisation.
- DreamScatter 6y agoYou should go ahead and start your own movement then, be a leader instead of an asshole who tears other people down.
- underseacables 6y agoI realize this is satire, but I’m concerned about the other open letter that this is referring to. How is it not supporting cancel culture? According to it, any transgression, no matter how small, that goes against identity politics is seen as an immediate and everlasting scarlet letter. For heaven sake’s, I don’t even know this guy, and I have very little knowledge of the FSF, but clearly this kind of pitch forking is very dangerous and very counterproductive.
- icha 6y agoRegardless of the minor controversial views held by RMS, this recent development is a dishonest attack on his person based on false accusations parroted by blatant liars. I don't think such precedents should be given any chance at success.
- kemonocode 6y agoWhat really gets my goat about the RMS situation is that he's not neuronormative, the same people lambasting him are the same people who would deride judgement calls that harsh against someone who's on the spectrum, yet somehow he's an acceptable target. Yes, he's awkward as all hell, and yes, he makes people uncomfortable sometimes and has no social filter, but his contributions are too many to be ignored and his behavior to me seems to be without malice.
- caeril 6y agoThis is nothing more than revenge of the non-nerds. The younger generation of technologists tend to have much better social skills than those of us "olds" who grew up on BBSes and the purple 8086 book. Writing software is now cool, so the newer cadre of developers are the same mental archetype that stuffed us into lockers for not being normal. They just do different things than play football now. They intend to punish us for the crime of not having been properly socialized by our peers.
- imagineerschool 6y agoRMS has been about taking principled, reasoned positions since forever. Taking unprincipled, unreasoned positions is more fashionable. Which tendency is more productive?