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It's not even the lack of apps directly but the effect of not having one of the two supported OSes. For example, the Dutch government is slowly pushing everyon

It's not even the lack of apps directly but the effect of not having one of the two supported OSes. For example, the Dutch government is slowly pushing everyone to either use their authentication app (for DigiD, the national digital government authentication service), or just stop using digital government services all together and just digitally mandate friends or family to handle your digital affairs. This latter option is of course targetted at the infirm and elderly. People who are able, literate, and have computers with modern OSes on them at the ready, but not one of the two smartphone OSes are considered to be such a minority that they can be safely ignored until they fold and get a cheap Android device. I don't have a smartphone with Android or IOS, and I get nudged constantly when using DigiD (on a laptop or desktop computer) to get the app for authentication. My bank also nudges me at every transaction (which I do on a desktop computer with a stand-alone card-reader they provide). I can't turn off the nudging or make the services remember my choice, and always have to perform an extra click to authenticate. The upcoming digital government law goes a step further and mandates a level of assurance that can currently only be met by the app for accessing your healthcare records. This is of course not required: you are also welcome to go to the healthcare provider in person and ask for you dossier on paper. And when you do so, you will be nudged at every step of the way to consider using their app. If this is a pattern that occurs worldwide, then smartphones that do not offer these apps have a very limited audience, and will remain curiosities for tinkerers and privacy conscious folk willing to make the trade-off (or even have a separate Android phone for the stuff mentioned above, for each adult member of their household). We somehow managed to get through the phase where Microsoft Windows was a hard requirement on your computer for compatibility reasons (remember how South Korea was stuck with ActiveX way beyond its sell-by-date?), but now we're stuck here.

amelius 6y ago
Hence smartphone OSes are a public utility, and should be opened up.
- zepto 6y ago
  That really doesn’t follow. The web is already open, and banks are already regulated. Just mandate that banks provide access to their services via the web.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    Web browsers lack an equivalent to Google's Safety Net, which banks are increasingly insisting on for security's sake.
    - zepto 6y ago
      That’s easily solved.
      - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
        How so? Safety Net is about things like locking the bootloader on one's phone, and preventing the user from having root access. Desktop computers don't have the same restrictions, and most of the people on this thread supporting the PinePhone would chafe at the notion that their desktop computers need to be locked down.
        zepto 6y ago
        It’s not about requiring that exact solution. It’s about providing security. There are other ways. If banks require a controlled endpoint, they can supply a hardware key.
        Mediterraneo10 6y ago
        As mentioned elsewhere here, separate hardware keys are on the way out. Banks no longer wish to offer them because the vast, vast majority of customers have a phone that, if it passes Safety Net, already is a hardware key.
        6y ago
zajio1am 6y ago
> For example, the Dutch government is slowly pushing everyone to either use their authentication app (for DigiD, the national digital government authentication service), Could not you use identity service from different EU country (based on eIDAS regulation)? Here in Czechia there is eIDAS-compatible identity provider that uses U2F tokens.
- Freak_NL 6y ago
  Eventually — and specifically for healthcare — yes! But I'm not sure if a citizen from one country can easily obtain credentials from another. It seems mostly meant for cases where you might need to sign on to a Dutch government website and you can then just use those Czech U2F tokens. It is a way forward though, but currently mostly hypothetical. Unfortunately, while there is a migration going on from offering only DigiD to offering the whole eIDAS suite (in the Netherlands this is done via a government service called ToegangsVerleningsService, so vendors only have to implement a SAML connection to that which will eventually support eIDAS), it is by no means sure that every government function will allow eIDAS instead of just DigiD. It's honestly a very opaque process. Great to hear that the Czech Republic chose U2F (now part of WebAuthn) though!
def_true_false 6y ago
> We somehow managed to get through the phase where Microsoft Windows was a hard requirement on your computer for compatibility reasons This almost made me spill my drink )) Is it so much better in the Netherlands, or do you just not get to interact with government bureaucracy much? Trying to e.g. get a building permit over here without using MS Office and Windows is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy...

amelius 6y ago

Hence smartphone OSes are a public utility, and should be opened up.

zepto 6y ago
That really doesn’t follow. The web is already open, and banks are already regulated. Just mandate that banks provide access to their services via the web.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  Web browsers lack an equivalent to Google's Safety Net, which banks are increasingly insisting on for security's sake.
  - zepto 6y ago
    That’s easily solved.
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      How so? Safety Net is about things like locking the bootloader on one's phone, and preventing the user from having root access. Desktop computers don't have the same restrictions, and most of the people on this thread supporting the PinePhone would chafe at the notion that their desktop computers need to be locked down.
      - zepto 6y ago
        It’s not about requiring that exact solution. It’s about providing security. There are other ways. If banks require a controlled endpoint, they can supply a hardware key.
        Mediterraneo10 6y ago
        As mentioned elsewhere here, separate hardware keys are on the way out. Banks no longer wish to offer them because the vast, vast majority of customers have a phone that, if it passes Safety Net, already is a hardware key.
        6y ago

zajio1am 6y ago

> For example, the Dutch government is slowly pushing everyone to either use their authentication app (for DigiD, the national digital government authentication service), Could not you use identity service from different EU country (based on eIDAS regulation)? Here in Czechia there is eIDAS-compatible identity provider that uses U2F tokens.

Freak_NL 6y ago
Eventually — and specifically for healthcare — yes! But I'm not sure if a citizen from one country can easily obtain credentials from another. It seems mostly meant for cases where you might need to sign on to a Dutch government website and you can then just use those Czech U2F tokens. It is a way forward though, but currently mostly hypothetical. Unfortunately, while there is a migration going on from offering only DigiD to offering the whole eIDAS suite (in the Netherlands this is done via a government service called ToegangsVerleningsService, so vendors only have to implement a SAML connection to that which will eventually support eIDAS), it is by no means sure that every government function will allow eIDAS instead of just DigiD. It's honestly a very opaque process. Great to hear that the Czech Republic chose U2F (now part of WebAuthn) though!

def_true_false 6y ago

> We somehow managed to get through the phase where Microsoft Windows was a hard requirement on your computer for compatibility reasons This almost made me spill my drink )) Is it so much better in the Netherlands, or do you just not get to interact with government bureaucracy much? Trying to e.g. get a building permit over here without using MS Office and Windows is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy...