5 ms·

IMHO, it does not have to change the duopoly, as long as it creates sustainable options for those who want to escape that duopoly. In that way it‘s already a su

by linmob 6y ago

IMHO, it does not have to change the duopoly, as long as it creates sustainable options for those who want to escape that duopoly. In that way it‘s already a success.

7357 6y ago
It's more likely to happen with platforms such as this than without.
amelius 6y ago
The point was: if it doesn't change the duopoly then who will write apps for the open platform? Not banks. Not governments. They will keep on developing only for Android and iOS. And people with a pinephone will have a great phone with a great OS, but with a shitty selection of apps.
- danShumway 6y ago
  I already use Linux with my bank and when I'm interacting with my government. And unlike on Android, the barrier of entry for me to write apps and set up quick solutions to problems is much lower. I don't need to run my code on a completely separate environment with no overlap. Emulation is going to be easier. I don't need to install Eclipse or whatever the heck Android devs tolerate now. That's part of the point of using Linux -- not creating an ecosystem from scratch. Virtually all of my computing outside of my phone is already done on Linux devices, and the setup works for day-to-day computing. Support is good enough for me. What makes you think Pinephone going to have worse support than my current Linux desktop? My hope with Pinephone is that a decent influx of Linux phone users will improve the quality of desktop software on Linux as well, since it forces devs to stop ignoring touch screens and to start thinking about responsive design. Ideally, the desktop versions of many apps should scale on interfaces like this without needing to be rewritten. But regardless, I'm still not particularly worried that my bank website is going to stop working.
  - amelius 6y ago
    To take one example: the interaction with your bank goes through a web-browser, I suppose? You probably need a special device for 2FA? In most bank apps, you can simply log in using a PIN-code and do things like check your balance, make small wire transfers, and make payments in stores through NFC. Doing these things in a web-browser on a mobile phone with a separate 2FA device is much more cumbersome. (I use Linux exclusively on the desktop so I know what you are talking about, but it just isn't going to work on a phone in the same way).
    - fsflover 6y ago
      > the interaction with your bank goes through a web-browser, I suppose? Can also be done with Android app via Anbox: https://social.librem.one/@dos/105119691527269967 https://social.librem.one/@dos/105119691527269967
      - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
        If could be done for the guy in your linked example, he was lucky and you shouldn’t be giving people false hopes. More and more bank apps are requiring phones that can pass Safety Net, and Anbox won't.
    - danShumway 6y ago
      :shrug: I don't have a bank app installed on my phone right now. And there are absolutely going to be Open Source 2FA apps being built for Pinephone, so I'm good there. Currently, I don't use a banking app because I don't trust my bank to have that level of access to my phone with a proprietary app, and because my bank's app isn't particularly good in the first place. So I'm not really losing out by using Pinephone. In fact, I might have more functionality after switching, since Android development is a mess and on a Linux platform I might be tempted to build something quickly for myself that periodically pulls down the CSV data from my bank and does a few things with it. I'm not saying that proprietary devs are going to start mass-building apps for this, I'm just saying that for a segment of the population, this may turn out not to be the problem you think it is. ---- Apps on my phone that I need replacements for: - NewPipe - Podcast app/music app - Maps - AndOTP - Signal (and/or Matrix) - Orgzly - Email - Good browser support - Maybe a few misc utilities, probably something I'm forgetting Do I have confidence that those apps or equivalents will be ported? Honestly, yes, I do. It would not take an insurmountable amount of work to build a Linux ecosystem that was more functional than my current phone setup.
- mindcrime 6y ago
  You can still get updated software for CP/M, BeOS, DOS and OS/2 for crying out loud. Maybe not a lot, but people write / maintain that stuff. A relatively modern phone, running Linux? If it gains any adoption, I expect that the availability of apps won't be a problem. Maybe the ecosystem won't be quite as rich as Android or IOS, but it may well be "pretty good" which will be good enough for a lot of people.
- linmob 6y ago
  You definitely have a point, and it‘s a pity that (desktop) Firefox recently dropped its haphazard support for Progressive Web Apps making that alternative even more unlikely to happen. On the other hand, I would not call the App Selection shitty, see https://LINMOBapps.frama.io https://LINMOBapps.frama.io.
- Freak_NL 6y ago
  It's not even the lack of apps directly but the effect of not having one of the two supported OSes. For example, the Dutch government is slowly pushing everyone to either use their authentication app (for DigiD, the national digital government authentication service), or just stop using digital government services all together and just digitally mandate friends or family to handle your digital affairs. This latter option is of course targetted at the infirm and elderly. People who are able, literate, and have computers with modern OSes on them at the ready, but not one of the two smartphone OSes are considered to be such a minority that they can be safely ignored until they fold and get a cheap Android device. I don't have a smartphone with Android or IOS, and I get nudged constantly when using DigiD (on a laptop or desktop computer) to get the app for authentication. My bank also nudges me at every transaction (which I do on a desktop computer with a stand-alone card-reader they provide). I can't turn off the nudging or make the services remember my choice, and always have to perform an extra click to authenticate. The upcoming digital government law goes a step further and mandates a level of assurance that can currently only be met by the app for accessing your healthcare records. This is of course not required: you are also welcome to go to the healthcare provider in person and ask for you dossier on paper. And when you do so, you will be nudged at every step of the way to consider using their app. If this is a pattern that occurs worldwide, then smartphones that do not offer these apps have a very limited audience, and will remain curiosities for tinkerers and privacy conscious folk willing to make the trade-off (or even have a separate Android phone for the stuff mentioned above, for each adult member of their household). We somehow managed to get through the phase where Microsoft Windows was a hard requirement on your computer for compatibility reasons (remember how South Korea was stuck with ActiveX way beyond its sell-by-date?), but now we're stuck here.
  - amelius 6y ago
    Hence smartphone OSes are a public utility, and should be opened up.
    - zepto 6y ago
      That really doesn’t follow. The web is already open, and banks are already regulated. Just mandate that banks provide access to their services via the web.
- ajconway 6y ago
  Actually, it has happened in the past. Windows Phone, a decent platform from the developer perspective failed to attract any significant interest. And that’s with all the resources of Microsoft and the recognition of Nokia.

by linmob 6y ago

IMHO, it does not have to change the duopoly, as long as it creates sustainable options for those who want to escape that duopoly. In that way it‘s already a success.

7357 6y ago

It's more likely to happen with platforms such as this than without.

amelius 6y ago

The point was: if it doesn't change the duopoly then who will write apps for the open platform? Not banks. Not governments. They will keep on developing only for Android and iOS. And people with a pinephone will have a great phone with a great OS, but with a shitty selection of apps.

danShumway 6y ago
I already use Linux with my bank and when I'm interacting with my government. And unlike on Android, the barrier of entry for me to write apps and set up quick solutions to problems is much lower. I don't need to run my code on a completely separate environment with no overlap. Emulation is going to be easier. I don't need to install Eclipse or whatever the heck Android devs tolerate now. That's part of the point of using Linux -- not creating an ecosystem from scratch. Virtually all of my computing outside of my phone is already done on Linux devices, and the setup works for day-to-day computing. Support is good enough for me. What makes you think Pinephone going to have worse support than my current Linux desktop? My hope with Pinephone is that a decent influx of Linux phone users will improve the quality of desktop software on Linux as well, since it forces devs to stop ignoring touch screens and to start thinking about responsive design. Ideally, the desktop versions of many apps should scale on interfaces like this without needing to be rewritten. But regardless, I'm still not particularly worried that my bank website is going to stop working.
- amelius 6y ago
  To take one example: the interaction with your bank goes through a web-browser, I suppose? You probably need a special device for 2FA? In most bank apps, you can simply log in using a PIN-code and do things like check your balance, make small wire transfers, and make payments in stores through NFC. Doing these things in a web-browser on a mobile phone with a separate 2FA device is much more cumbersome. (I use Linux exclusively on the desktop so I know what you are talking about, but it just isn't going to work on a phone in the same way).
  - fsflover 6y ago
    > the interaction with your bank goes through a web-browser, I suppose? Can also be done with Android app via Anbox: https://social.librem.one/@dos/105119691527269967 https://social.librem.one/@dos/105119691527269967
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      If could be done for the guy in your linked example, he was lucky and you shouldn’t be giving people false hopes. More and more bank apps are requiring phones that can pass Safety Net, and Anbox won't.
  - danShumway 6y ago
    :shrug: I don't have a bank app installed on my phone right now. And there are absolutely going to be Open Source 2FA apps being built for Pinephone, so I'm good there. Currently, I don't use a banking app because I don't trust my bank to have that level of access to my phone with a proprietary app, and because my bank's app isn't particularly good in the first place. So I'm not really losing out by using Pinephone. In fact, I might have more functionality after switching, since Android development is a mess and on a Linux platform I might be tempted to build something quickly for myself that periodically pulls down the CSV data from my bank and does a few things with it. I'm not saying that proprietary devs are going to start mass-building apps for this, I'm just saying that for a segment of the population, this may turn out not to be the problem you think it is. ---- Apps on my phone that I need replacements for: - NewPipe - Podcast app/music app - Maps - AndOTP - Signal (and/or Matrix) - Orgzly - Email - Good browser support - Maybe a few misc utilities, probably something I'm forgetting Do I have confidence that those apps or equivalents will be ported? Honestly, yes, I do. It would not take an insurmountable amount of work to build a Linux ecosystem that was more functional than my current phone setup.
mindcrime 6y ago
You can still get updated software for CP/M, BeOS, DOS and OS/2 for crying out loud. Maybe not a lot, but people write / maintain that stuff. A relatively modern phone, running Linux? If it gains any adoption, I expect that the availability of apps won't be a problem. Maybe the ecosystem won't be quite as rich as Android or IOS, but it may well be "pretty good" which will be good enough for a lot of people.
linmob 6y ago
You definitely have a point, and it‘s a pity that (desktop) Firefox recently dropped its haphazard support for Progressive Web Apps making that alternative even more unlikely to happen. On the other hand, I would not call the App Selection shitty, see https://LINMOBapps.frama.io https://LINMOBapps.frama.io.
Freak_NL 6y ago
It's not even the lack of apps directly but the effect of not having one of the two supported OSes. For example, the Dutch government is slowly pushing everyone to either use their authentication app (for DigiD, the national digital government authentication service), or just stop using digital government services all together and just digitally mandate friends or family to handle your digital affairs. This latter option is of course targetted at the infirm and elderly. People who are able, literate, and have computers with modern OSes on them at the ready, but not one of the two smartphone OSes are considered to be such a minority that they can be safely ignored until they fold and get a cheap Android device. I don't have a smartphone with Android or IOS, and I get nudged constantly when using DigiD (on a laptop or desktop computer) to get the app for authentication. My bank also nudges me at every transaction (which I do on a desktop computer with a stand-alone card-reader they provide). I can't turn off the nudging or make the services remember my choice, and always have to perform an extra click to authenticate. The upcoming digital government law goes a step further and mandates a level of assurance that can currently only be met by the app for accessing your healthcare records. This is of course not required: you are also welcome to go to the healthcare provider in person and ask for you dossier on paper. And when you do so, you will be nudged at every step of the way to consider using their app. If this is a pattern that occurs worldwide, then smartphones that do not offer these apps have a very limited audience, and will remain curiosities for tinkerers and privacy conscious folk willing to make the trade-off (or even have a separate Android phone for the stuff mentioned above, for each adult member of their household). We somehow managed to get through the phase where Microsoft Windows was a hard requirement on your computer for compatibility reasons (remember how South Korea was stuck with ActiveX way beyond its sell-by-date?), but now we're stuck here.
- amelius 6y ago
  Hence smartphone OSes are a public utility, and should be opened up.
  - zepto 6y ago
    That really doesn’t follow. The web is already open, and banks are already regulated. Just mandate that banks provide access to their services via the web.
ajconway 6y ago
Actually, it has happened in the past. Windows Phone, a decent platform from the developer perspective failed to attract any significant interest. And that’s with all the resources of Microsoft and the recognition of Nokia.