7 ms·

Is that surprising? There is little value in taking on the risk of infection (and resulting bad PR and work disruption) given that you can maintain your operati

Is that surprising? There is little value in taking on the risk of infection (and resulting bad PR and work disruption) given that you can maintain your operations with remote workers ... especially given the fact that if you wait just a few more months, your staff will be vaccinated. > Box Inc said its reopening is still scheduled for September. That's probably the most reasonable timeline for tech workers. And even then, we'll probably see tepid support for that. Things aren't going to go back to normal in 2021.

ekianjo 6y ago
Why do we need offices again? Best time ever to make full switch to remote
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- brianwawok 6y ago
  Because humans are social animals, and many of us enjoy interacting with IRL coworkers. It also allows much creativity and has various other benefits, both with your work - and with your mental well being.
  - kristiandupont 6y ago
    As someone who was suffering from serious cabin fever last April, I can now say that I would find it quite annoying to be asked to go to an office full time again. The option to go as I please (which would probably average one or two days a week) would be excellent, though!
    - CobsterLock 6y ago
      we, small enterprise software company, have opened the office under that model. What is happening is that some people have refused to return, myself included, some are doing the official 2 days a week, and others are going back full time. The office actually opened up last year, right after the first NYC fizzled out. There have been a few week long shutdowns of the entire office as some are found to have COVID-19. My general thoughts are that there are a few people that got strong armed into returning, but most that are back in the office are happy to be there.
  - solosoyokaze 6y ago
    All the same can be said for wfh. I can socialize with people I want to socialize with, not those I have to socialize with. I have freedom, no commute, no open office, no manager dropping in on me... I have extensive experience managing and working remote and non-remote and I've never seen any benefit to non-remote work. Productivity and creativity are higher with wfh and stress and burnout are way lower.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    Thats what you want to believe. In reality after 6 months plus of full remote work most people dont want to step in the office again at least nowhere near full time. We see this in every 1:1 conversation.
    - oblio 6y ago
      For software developers...
  - supernovae 6y ago
    I guess I've learned since the pandemic and finding a new job during pandemic that being at the office wasn't as fulfilling as I once thought it was and that those social interactions were rather fake/short lived and the bursts of creativity I did enjoy were destroyed by upper management deciding everything we did would be thrown out for something new. What I want is not another day sitting in a god forsaken office after sitting in crappy traffic but rather the ability to go have a coffee, grab some lunch or just hang out and "Talk shop" with people regardless of being direct co-workers, friends, peers and whatnot. Those are the kinds of people who called me, messaged me and asked me how I was doing. THe only other former co-workers who keep up with me are ones who quit and found new jobs too - it's like since we're not still suffering we're no longer friends and all too often we see that as fulfilling social interactions without question. I guess with hindsight I actually see the "office" as anti-social - it creates bad/poor behaviors, people find solace in common suffering and 9 times out of 10 all of my co-workers were actually dicks who only showed up to work to avoid their unhealthy home life and again, with hindsight, I see they tried making me ancillary to their unhealth work life too. hard to explain it in a small text box, but I guess i just see the office environment as extremely fake, demoralizing and depressing - even though i've had some great memories through it - i'd rather not be captive to sitting in a cubicle chair and actually develop much more rewarding, enriching and valuable experiences that translate to more productivity and creativity in the end. Often times i don't even get to choose my co-workers and if I did, those teams are often short lived and i think that corporate disruption to things that matter on a human to human level is something we're refusing to challenge/change because "it is the way it is". I get thrown on a new team, and its not new friends, it's now colleagues to suffer with and build empty relationships.
    - npsimons 6y ago
      I second your whole post. To try and empathize with a lot of the people bemoaning WFH, I believe they are just suffering from quarantines in general. I truly believe many of them would do fine if they could WFH 100%, but be able to go out with friends on weeknights and weekends. You are absolutely right that the office is a pisspoor substitute for real comraderie, and I wish people would stop conflating the two.
  - whateveracct 6y ago
    Offices make me spend 4+ extra hours a day on work with 0 benefit. That's 20 hours/week I could be spending with my wife & cats, caring for my home, developing skills and software that makes me money instead of some corporation. That's an entire mini-lifetime I'd be giving my employer. And I don't think I ever will have to - I can force myself to be remote the rest of my working life. And that mini-lifetime is mine..and that's priceless. I've had 1 or 2 coworkers out of hundreds I became any level of "friends" with, and the closest of whom I didn't even work directly with. Actually, one of the coworkers I'm friends with, I met in a remote team with us living across the country from each other.
    - brianwawok 6y ago
      I am glad that is your experience.There is no single answer for all people. I think you as an employee are making a wise choice. If you can get paid a full salary for 20 hours of work, it is in your best interest to keep that alive! As a business owner, I am not sure you would hire on the same axis. I would personally not hire someone that can only work for 20 hours a week, there is too much to do.
      - whateveracct 6y ago
        I've worked at many remote companies by now. None have asked how many hours they're getting out of me. And they all got more or less the amount of time mentioned. And they were all plenty happy with my output! Why would they care if the output was the result of fewer hours? If they wanted to pay me by the hour, they could have negotiated that. At-will salaried employment cuts both ways :) and in this case, everyone is happy. Anyone wanting more hours out of me is just trying to exploit my labor. I'm already getting paid fair value for what I'm producing.
      - nemothekid 6y ago
        >As a business owner, I am not sure you would hire on the same axis If you are hiring salaried individuals on the basis on how many hours they put in a week, then you might be focusing on the wrong metrics. There were plenty of people in tech doing 20 hours of work a week, and spending the remaining 20 hours on hacker news. I bemoan WFH, but not because of work output.
  - ryandrake 6y ago
    I think people who "enjoy interacting with IRL coworkers" should absolutely be allowed to return to their offices, but don't force people who work better from home or have four hour commutes (like me) to come back too. Some people have been really struggling with WFH and just can't make it work well for them, and they understandably want to get back to the office. That's great, and they should do it! But why not also let people who have been thriving under WFH continue to do it?
  - caddemon 6y ago
    I'd probably prefer full-time WFH over full-time office 9-5, but I agree there is definitely a benefit to spending 1-2 days per week in the office. I'm hoping some more jobs with that sort of format will come out of this too.
- btmcnellis 6y ago
  Human beings didn’t evolve to spend 100% of their time staring into a webcam, only interacting over Zoom. Remote is great and should be part of the solution, but sometimes, you just can’t beat face-to-face.
  - shock 6y ago
    Human beings didn't evolve to sit in a chair at a desk for 6+ hours daily. What's your point?
    - BruiseLee 6y ago
      Well we did evolve big buttocks (bigger than other primates) that are apparently useful for sitting for extended periods of time.
      - yladiz 6y ago
        It's likely more to support walking (and running) on two legs for extended periods of time.
      - shock 6y ago
        I'm not sure what you mean. In people who sit for long periods of time the gluteus mucles (buttocks) become atrophied. Do you mean the ass fat is useful for sitting? Maybe you're just making a joke and I'm not getting it.
  - matz1 6y ago
    Guess what, human as like any other organism can adapt to their changing environment. Basic evolution biology.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    When we work we dont spend all our time in zoom meetings. Do you?
- jayd16 6y ago
  Whiteboards, space, and low ping communication.
  - marcind 6y ago
    sharetheboard.com -- here's an excuse to scratch whiteboards off your list. or... to use them more :)
    - jayd16 6y ago
      Alright well how do I hand the marker to a coworker so they can append to my image? Do I need to set up a projector or something? Forget the fact that I don't have the space for a whiteboard in my home to begin with...
      - marcind 6y ago
        Excellent questions and astute predictions of what's in store on the roadmap. :) Very soon we will be adding viewer annotations (ability for remote viewers to add content/comments on your board). As you're facing your laptop during your remote presentation anyway, we've found that this works reasonably well. The augmented reality approach (via smart glasses or synchronized projectors) is also on the map but getting the timing right is much trickier. The UX of it is nothing short of magic but the market for people with glasses or synchronized projectors is fragmented. As for your last note: you don't need a whiteboard! Flipcharts or electrostatic sheets are cost/space-effective alternatives. Also, you can simply point your camera at your notebook and scribble away. Indeed, many of us do this, it's very natural (though, admittedly, we're still getting some kinks out).
- dyingkneepad 6y ago
  I asked this very question in my 1st year of fully remote working. By the 7th year the answer was very clear in my head, so I went back to the office. Two years later COVID happened and now I'm stuck at home again. It took me a few years to realize the effects of loneliness and the lack of social interaction. But I do have one extra point: if work is fully remote (i.e., every employee is remote) things work much much better than when only part of the team is remote. You need to at least make sure your manager is also fully remote.
matz1 6y ago
Its nothing to do with the risk from covid because its minuscule, its more of does it actually make sense to work in the office? For many tech worker, there is little benefit of actual office space.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  >Its nothing to do with the risk from covid Huh? The reason why offices of big tech companies are closed is SOLELY due to covid.
  - matz1 6y ago
    if it because of covid then it doesn't make sense because the risk are so small.
    - kevstev 6y ago
      You don't believe the risk of spreading covid is small in an enclosed space? Especially when so many of us now work in open floor plans? My first job in an open floor plan (really a trading floor setup), we would literally watch colds and other ailments work their way up and down the rows each winter.
      - matz1 6y ago
        The risk of spreading itself its not small. The risk of one actually die from covid is really small. I would be fine in the office in closed space with other people if it make sense for my work, regardless of covid.
        kevstev 6y ago
        Its not just about death with Covid- one of my coworkers- who on the brief times he came to the office since this started last March- wore a mask at all times, even at his desk- caught covid in early November. He is a long hauler and now has what appears to be chronic leg pains that he goes to doctors weekly for to get properly diagnosed. This is a guy in his 20s. If a "really small risk" is 545k people dead in a year in the US, even with all the precautions we have taken, I think we fundamentally disagree on what a really small risk is. There are now more dead from Covid in a year than the entire durations of both World Wars combined and in about a month or so, we can lump in Vietnam in there as well.
rconti 6y ago
Especially because they gave us long timeframes (my Silicon Valley company announced "no return to office requirement until September 2021" last summer sometime) in order to give us all the ability to make longer-term plans, rather than always wondering "Will it be this month?

ekianjo 6y ago

Why do we need offices again? Best time ever to make full switch to remote

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
brianwawok 6y ago
Because humans are social animals, and many of us enjoy interacting with IRL coworkers. It also allows much creativity and has various other benefits, both with your work - and with your mental well being.
- kristiandupont 6y ago
  As someone who was suffering from serious cabin fever last April, I can now say that I would find it quite annoying to be asked to go to an office full time again. The option to go as I please (which would probably average one or two days a week) would be excellent, though!
  - CobsterLock 6y ago
    we, small enterprise software company, have opened the office under that model. What is happening is that some people have refused to return, myself included, some are doing the official 2 days a week, and others are going back full time. The office actually opened up last year, right after the first NYC fizzled out. There have been a few week long shutdowns of the entire office as some are found to have COVID-19. My general thoughts are that there are a few people that got strong armed into returning, but most that are back in the office are happy to be there.
- solosoyokaze 6y ago
  All the same can be said for wfh. I can socialize with people I want to socialize with, not those I have to socialize with. I have freedom, no commute, no open office, no manager dropping in on me... I have extensive experience managing and working remote and non-remote and I've never seen any benefit to non-remote work. Productivity and creativity are higher with wfh and stress and burnout are way lower.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  Thats what you want to believe. In reality after 6 months plus of full remote work most people dont want to step in the office again at least nowhere near full time. We see this in every 1:1 conversation.
  - oblio 6y ago
    For software developers...
- supernovae 6y ago
  I guess I've learned since the pandemic and finding a new job during pandemic that being at the office wasn't as fulfilling as I once thought it was and that those social interactions were rather fake/short lived and the bursts of creativity I did enjoy were destroyed by upper management deciding everything we did would be thrown out for something new. What I want is not another day sitting in a god forsaken office after sitting in crappy traffic but rather the ability to go have a coffee, grab some lunch or just hang out and "Talk shop" with people regardless of being direct co-workers, friends, peers and whatnot. Those are the kinds of people who called me, messaged me and asked me how I was doing. THe only other former co-workers who keep up with me are ones who quit and found new jobs too - it's like since we're not still suffering we're no longer friends and all too often we see that as fulfilling social interactions without question. I guess with hindsight I actually see the "office" as anti-social - it creates bad/poor behaviors, people find solace in common suffering and 9 times out of 10 all of my co-workers were actually dicks who only showed up to work to avoid their unhealthy home life and again, with hindsight, I see they tried making me ancillary to their unhealth work life too. hard to explain it in a small text box, but I guess i just see the office environment as extremely fake, demoralizing and depressing - even though i've had some great memories through it - i'd rather not be captive to sitting in a cubicle chair and actually develop much more rewarding, enriching and valuable experiences that translate to more productivity and creativity in the end. Often times i don't even get to choose my co-workers and if I did, those teams are often short lived and i think that corporate disruption to things that matter on a human to human level is something we're refusing to challenge/change because "it is the way it is". I get thrown on a new team, and its not new friends, it's now colleagues to suffer with and build empty relationships.
  - npsimons 6y ago
    I second your whole post. To try and empathize with a lot of the people bemoaning WFH, I believe they are just suffering from quarantines in general. I truly believe many of them would do fine if they could WFH 100%, but be able to go out with friends on weeknights and weekends. You are absolutely right that the office is a pisspoor substitute for real comraderie, and I wish people would stop conflating the two.
- whateveracct 6y ago
  Offices make me spend 4+ extra hours a day on work with 0 benefit. That's 20 hours/week I could be spending with my wife & cats, caring for my home, developing skills and software that makes me money instead of some corporation. That's an entire mini-lifetime I'd be giving my employer. And I don't think I ever will have to - I can force myself to be remote the rest of my working life. And that mini-lifetime is mine..and that's priceless. I've had 1 or 2 coworkers out of hundreds I became any level of "friends" with, and the closest of whom I didn't even work directly with. Actually, one of the coworkers I'm friends with, I met in a remote team with us living across the country from each other.
  - brianwawok 6y ago
    I am glad that is your experience.There is no single answer for all people. I think you as an employee are making a wise choice. If you can get paid a full salary for 20 hours of work, it is in your best interest to keep that alive! As a business owner, I am not sure you would hire on the same axis. I would personally not hire someone that can only work for 20 hours a week, there is too much to do.
    - whateveracct 6y ago
      I've worked at many remote companies by now. None have asked how many hours they're getting out of me. And they all got more or less the amount of time mentioned. And they were all plenty happy with my output! Why would they care if the output was the result of fewer hours? If they wanted to pay me by the hour, they could have negotiated that. At-will salaried employment cuts both ways :) and in this case, everyone is happy. Anyone wanting more hours out of me is just trying to exploit my labor. I'm already getting paid fair value for what I'm producing.
    - nemothekid 6y ago
      >As a business owner, I am not sure you would hire on the same axis If you are hiring salaried individuals on the basis on how many hours they put in a week, then you might be focusing on the wrong metrics. There were plenty of people in tech doing 20 hours of work a week, and spending the remaining 20 hours on hacker news. I bemoan WFH, but not because of work output.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  I think people who "enjoy interacting with IRL coworkers" should absolutely be allowed to return to their offices, but don't force people who work better from home or have four hour commutes (like me) to come back too. Some people have been really struggling with WFH and just can't make it work well for them, and they understandably want to get back to the office. That's great, and they should do it! But why not also let people who have been thriving under WFH continue to do it?
- caddemon 6y ago
  I'd probably prefer full-time WFH over full-time office 9-5, but I agree there is definitely a benefit to spending 1-2 days per week in the office. I'm hoping some more jobs with that sort of format will come out of this too.
btmcnellis 6y ago
Human beings didn’t evolve to spend 100% of their time staring into a webcam, only interacting over Zoom. Remote is great and should be part of the solution, but sometimes, you just can’t beat face-to-face.
- shock 6y ago
  Human beings didn't evolve to sit in a chair at a desk for 6+ hours daily. What's your point?
  - BruiseLee 6y ago
    Well we did evolve big buttocks (bigger than other primates) that are apparently useful for sitting for extended periods of time.
    - yladiz 6y ago
      It's likely more to support walking (and running) on two legs for extended periods of time.
    - shock 6y ago
      I'm not sure what you mean. In people who sit for long periods of time the gluteus mucles (buttocks) become atrophied. Do you mean the ass fat is useful for sitting? Maybe you're just making a joke and I'm not getting it.
- matz1 6y ago
  Guess what, human as like any other organism can adapt to their changing environment. Basic evolution biology.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  When we work we dont spend all our time in zoom meetings. Do you?
jayd16 6y ago
Whiteboards, space, and low ping communication.
- marcind 6y ago
  sharetheboard.com -- here's an excuse to scratch whiteboards off your list. or... to use them more :)
  - jayd16 6y ago
    Alright well how do I hand the marker to a coworker so they can append to my image? Do I need to set up a projector or something? Forget the fact that I don't have the space for a whiteboard in my home to begin with...
    - marcind 6y ago
      Excellent questions and astute predictions of what's in store on the roadmap. :) Very soon we will be adding viewer annotations (ability for remote viewers to add content/comments on your board). As you're facing your laptop during your remote presentation anyway, we've found that this works reasonably well. The augmented reality approach (via smart glasses or synchronized projectors) is also on the map but getting the timing right is much trickier. The UX of it is nothing short of magic but the market for people with glasses or synchronized projectors is fragmented. As for your last note: you don't need a whiteboard! Flipcharts or electrostatic sheets are cost/space-effective alternatives. Also, you can simply point your camera at your notebook and scribble away. Indeed, many of us do this, it's very natural (though, admittedly, we're still getting some kinks out).
dyingkneepad 6y ago
I asked this very question in my 1st year of fully remote working. By the 7th year the answer was very clear in my head, so I went back to the office. Two years later COVID happened and now I'm stuck at home again. It took me a few years to realize the effects of loneliness and the lack of social interaction. But I do have one extra point: if work is fully remote (i.e., every employee is remote) things work much much better than when only part of the team is remote. You need to at least make sure your manager is also fully remote.

matz1 6y ago

Its nothing to do with the risk from covid because its minuscule, its more of does it actually make sense to work in the office? For many tech worker, there is little benefit of actual office space.

macspoofing 6y ago
>Its nothing to do with the risk from covid Huh? The reason why offices of big tech companies are closed is SOLELY due to covid.
- matz1 6y ago
  if it because of covid then it doesn't make sense because the risk are so small.
  - kevstev 6y ago
    You don't believe the risk of spreading covid is small in an enclosed space? Especially when so many of us now work in open floor plans? My first job in an open floor plan (really a trading floor setup), we would literally watch colds and other ailments work their way up and down the rows each winter.
    - matz1 6y ago
      The risk of spreading itself its not small. The risk of one actually die from covid is really small. I would be fine in the office in closed space with other people if it make sense for my work, regardless of covid.
      - kevstev 6y ago
        Its not just about death with Covid- one of my coworkers- who on the brief times he came to the office since this started last March- wore a mask at all times, even at his desk- caught covid in early November. He is a long hauler and now has what appears to be chronic leg pains that he goes to doctors weekly for to get properly diagnosed. This is a guy in his 20s. If a "really small risk" is 545k people dead in a year in the US, even with all the precautions we have taken, I think we fundamentally disagree on what a really small risk is. There are now more dead from Covid in a year than the entire durations of both World Wars combined and in about a month or so, we can lump in Vietnam in there as well.

rconti 6y ago

Especially because they gave us long timeframes (my Silicon Valley company announced "no return to office requirement until September 2021" last summer sometime) in order to give us all the ability to make longer-term plans, rather than always wondering "Will it be this month?