6 ms·

Paul Graham speaks out against cancel culture

50 points by andyxor 6y ago

nl 6y ago
@dang can we fix the editorialising in the HN post title please? (Currently "Paul Graham speaks out against cancel culture") I'd suggest "PG on signs of a witch hunt" or something similar?
desireco42 6y ago
This is super important. And like he said, people who stand to defend those falsely accused, they get targeted and cancelled.
foolinaround 6y ago
all rational persons should agree that cancel culture is cancer.. Like any rule, this too can have an exception. However, this exception needs to be specified objectively ahead of the incident. And it should be uniformly applied. When folks see that this is not done, it gives rise to speculation and lack of trust.
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
Cue people calling for PG to be cancelled in 5, 4, 3...
- nartz 6y ago
  By speaking out about cancel culture, he is technically defending those who have been cancelled - thus he is only 1 hop away, and by his own equation, should be cancelled.
- Turing_Machine 6y ago
  Well, there's an attempt to flag him off his own site, so...
- tguvot 6y ago
  Well, this conversation was flagged already like 5 times (at least)
mc32 6y ago
Twitter promotes infestations and festering. Paul comes with a pretty obvious take and the witch hunters come in and prove his point. It's like they can't stand criticism of their culture. They can't see how detrimental it is. How stifling it is to free expression and exchange of ideas. To them everything is dogma.
- krapp 6y ago
  Disagreement with someone's point of view is not engaging in a witch-hunt - which PG himself states in that thread. It seems like you're the one unable to see past their dogma.
  - fghfghfghfghfgh 6y ago
    No, the poster is correctly identifying cancel and woke culture as dogmatic. From their point of view there are two options: You are either enlightened and agree with their cause or you have yet to see the light. There is no difference between this and dogmatic interpretation of religion. The cancel part is a social inquisition carried out by public shaming and a goal of ostracization
    - DanBC 6y ago
      This is a mythical view of cancel culture, and it's driven entirely by arseholes who have realised that people are now prepared to call them arseholes. "I'm being cancelled" they yell, from the front page of a national newspaper. It's telling that the small number of white people denied jobs because they behave like cunts get all the attention. The very many people denied jobs because they're women or because they're black or because they're LGBT+ don't ever meet your threshold for attention, do they? Why is that?
      - fghfghfghfghfgh 6y ago
        It is my interpretation on seeing people (who I don't necessarily agree with) being silenced. I see from the other comments that there is no consensus on the term "cancel culture" itself so that certainly doesn't help the conversation. I dislike the notion of a mob and public shaming. Regardless of the individual receiving the attention. And I am appalled by the current direction of legal censorship in our democracies. Hate will not go away by outlawing hateful speech. Racism will not go away by outlawing racist speech. Freedom of speech is, and must be, absolute. You possibility to get a job should not be determined by the way you look and your sexual preference. It also shouldn't be determined by corporations fearful of reprisals caused by a momentarily stir on social media. My attention is not an the individual being discriminated but on the downwards slope of categorizing, in ever smaller groups, based on skin color or similar. I am an individual. You are an individual. I demand to be seen as one and I demand to see you as one.
okareaman 6y ago
It seems to me that everyone has a different idea of what it means to be cancelled and what the culture is around that. I can be rebuked (an expression of sharp disapproval or criticism), I can be censured (the expression of formal disapproval) I can be given a fine, put in jail, fired from my job, kicked off social media, or any number of things that could be called "cancelled." The people who have recently exhibited a zeal for cancelling people form a group of some sort. I'm not sure who these people are. It's different for different types of cancelling. I'm confused by the whole issue.
- qsort 6y ago
  This is a very valid point, but isn't it kind of the same for most topics? More often than not, well-intentioned people have to move towards more specific, contextual definitions in order to avoid broad, empty statements. Might be that I'm a pedantic a-hole, but I'm asking "what do you mean by X, exactly?" all the time. Concerning "canceling" specifically, I agree there's a lot of fluff, but there are also valid points and concerns behind it all.
- darkteflon 6y ago
  Agreed. I always assumed the term “cancel culture” was a partisan broad brush created and wielded by right-leaning media to tar young people with honestly-held but perhaps loudly and annoyingly-expressed convictions about the appalling state of the world and our toxic public discourse in the age of Trump and Twitter. Seeing Rupert Murdoch come out against it all pretty much settled the question for me: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-25/fox-mogul-rupert-murdoch-slams-cancel-culture-in-rare-speech https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-25/fox-mogul.... I think if someone starts talking to you about “cancel culture” like you’re supposed to know what that means, it’s a fair bet that they’re leading into a partisan political position. EDIT: Haha, I’m being cancelled
  - krapp 6y ago
    At this point the term has been abused by the right-wing in its persecution complex narrative so thoroughly that literally any disagreement, criticism or social activism which can be interpreted as "progressive" is interpreted as "cancel culture." It's just a catch-all pejorative for any opinion publicly expressed by any "leftist," anywhere.
stelcodes 6y ago
Y’all really afraid of women speaking out against abusers huh? Speaks volumes
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- fghfghfghfghfgh 6y ago
  I don't think so - at least I am not. I am however against the narrative that men, as a group, are inherently sexist. Or that white people are, inherently, racist.
dustinmoris 6y ago
The problem with cancel culture is the same as with any other topic nowadays. It is being hugely polarised to a point where one cannot have a nuanced view anymore. Cancel culture is real, but the opposite is very true as well. Not everyone who has lost their job has been a victim of cancel culture. If someone has sexually harassed someone else or was verbally or physically abusive to people then of course they will lose their job. That is a simple matter of being held accountable for their actions. People who do wrong must be held accountable and take responsibility for it. However, there are also real cases of cancel culture. Cancel culture is clear when people are not allowed ever rehabilitate after having made a mistake. The fact that Kevin Hart has been forced out of the Golden Globes because of a mistake he has made more than a decade ago is cancel culture. The fact that people want to force Kevin Hart to repeatedly have to apologise for a mistake which he has already taken full responsibility for and apologised when it happened is ridiculous. At some point people must be allowed to look towards the future and not grieve forever in the past. If we cannot forgive people for mistakes and allow them to participate in society again then why don't we just execute everyone who has ever done a single mistake? What's the point of further living when the cancel culture brigade wants to shut down someone's life entirely? If people are never allowed to be hired again then what shall they do? Shall tax payers pay for them or shall we literally just let them starve to death? Not allowing people to move on from mistakes is really dangerous. If anything we should empower people who have learned from their past mistakes and give them a voice so they can teach new generations to not repeat their own mistakes. Shutting someone down who has taken full responsibility, learned from their mistakes and moved on is not helpful at all. To me cancel culture is the act of people wanting to shut someone down not for correcting the original mistake but to harm the individual person out of spite and hate. Hate doesn't have an expiry date which is why the cancel culture folks can never forgive someone who has made a mistake. We need to be careful that we don't give too much power and voice to the people who act out of hate.
- selfhoster11 6y ago
  A politically incorrect interpretation of cancel culture is that it's like a religion, except for the forgiveness being missing.
- itsdrewmiller 6y ago
geofft 6y ago
Is this true, though? I don't think there was ever "I saw Joe Bystander selling a loaf of bread to Goody Proctor!" in historical witch hunts, whether the Salem one or the McCarthy. I mean, sure, it might be a sign of poor judgment, but why is it a "characteristic sign of a witch hunt"?
approxim8ion 6y ago
Those screaming about nuance in situations where people are cancelled are quick to paint "the mob" in the least nuanced light possible. Not surprising why.
- fghfghfghfghfgh 6y ago
  Probably because those who scream the loudest influence the view on the following group. Is this different than any other situation such as Trump and his supporters?
  - approxim8ion 6y ago
    I suppose not. I guess the homogeneity of opinion on this forum is a little surprising to me is all.
motogpjimbo 6y ago
Ironically, this is currently on the front page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26565861 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26565861. Calling for both RMS and those who allowed him to rejoin the board of the FSF to be removed.

50 points by andyxor 6y ago

nl 6y ago

@dang can we fix the editorialising in the HN post title please? (Currently "Paul Graham speaks out against cancel culture") I'd suggest "PG on signs of a witch hunt" or something similar?

desireco42 6y ago

This is super important. And like he said, people who stand to defend those falsely accused, they get targeted and cancelled.

foolinaround 6y ago

all rational persons should agree that cancel culture is cancer.. Like any rule, this too can have an exception. However, this exception needs to be specified objectively ahead of the incident. And it should be uniformly applied. When folks see that this is not done, it gives rise to speculation and lack of trust.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

Cue people calling for PG to be cancelled in 5, 4, 3...

nartz 6y ago
By speaking out about cancel culture, he is technically defending those who have been cancelled - thus he is only 1 hop away, and by his own equation, should be cancelled.
Turing_Machine 6y ago
Well, there's an attempt to flag him off his own site, so...
tguvot 6y ago
Well, this conversation was flagged already like 5 times (at least)

mc32 6y ago

Twitter promotes infestations and festering. Paul comes with a pretty obvious take and the witch hunters come in and prove his point. It's like they can't stand criticism of their culture. They can't see how detrimental it is. How stifling it is to free expression and exchange of ideas. To them everything is dogma.

krapp 6y ago
Disagreement with someone's point of view is not engaging in a witch-hunt - which PG himself states in that thread. It seems like you're the one unable to see past their dogma.
- fghfghfghfghfgh 6y ago
  No, the poster is correctly identifying cancel and woke culture as dogmatic. From their point of view there are two options: You are either enlightened and agree with their cause or you have yet to see the light. There is no difference between this and dogmatic interpretation of religion. The cancel part is a social inquisition carried out by public shaming and a goal of ostracization
  - DanBC 6y ago
    This is a mythical view of cancel culture, and it's driven entirely by arseholes who have realised that people are now prepared to call them arseholes. "I'm being cancelled" they yell, from the front page of a national newspaper. It's telling that the small number of white people denied jobs because they behave like cunts get all the attention. The very many people denied jobs because they're women or because they're black or because they're LGBT+ don't ever meet your threshold for attention, do they? Why is that?
    - fghfghfghfghfgh 6y ago
      It is my interpretation on seeing people (who I don't necessarily agree with) being silenced. I see from the other comments that there is no consensus on the term "cancel culture" itself so that certainly doesn't help the conversation. I dislike the notion of a mob and public shaming. Regardless of the individual receiving the attention. And I am appalled by the current direction of legal censorship in our democracies. Hate will not go away by outlawing hateful speech. Racism will not go away by outlawing racist speech. Freedom of speech is, and must be, absolute. You possibility to get a job should not be determined by the way you look and your sexual preference. It also shouldn't be determined by corporations fearful of reprisals caused by a momentarily stir on social media. My attention is not an the individual being discriminated but on the downwards slope of categorizing, in ever smaller groups, based on skin color or similar. I am an individual. You are an individual. I demand to be seen as one and I demand to see you as one.

okareaman 6y ago

It seems to me that everyone has a different idea of what it means to be cancelled and what the culture is around that. I can be rebuked (an expression of sharp disapproval or criticism), I can be censured (the expression of formal disapproval) I can be given a fine, put in jail, fired from my job, kicked off social media, or any number of things that could be called "cancelled." The people who have recently exhibited a zeal for cancelling people form a group of some sort. I'm not sure who these people are. It's different for different types of cancelling. I'm confused by the whole issue.

qsort 6y ago
This is a very valid point, but isn't it kind of the same for most topics? More often than not, well-intentioned people have to move towards more specific, contextual definitions in order to avoid broad, empty statements. Might be that I'm a pedantic a-hole, but I'm asking "what do you mean by X, exactly?" all the time. Concerning "canceling" specifically, I agree there's a lot of fluff, but there are also valid points and concerns behind it all.
darkteflon 6y ago
Agreed. I always assumed the term “cancel culture” was a partisan broad brush created and wielded by right-leaning media to tar young people with honestly-held but perhaps loudly and annoyingly-expressed convictions about the appalling state of the world and our toxic public discourse in the age of Trump and Twitter. Seeing Rupert Murdoch come out against it all pretty much settled the question for me: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-25/fox-mogul-rupert-murdoch-slams-cancel-culture-in-rare-speech https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-25/fox-mogul.... I think if someone starts talking to you about “cancel culture” like you’re supposed to know what that means, it’s a fair bet that they’re leading into a partisan political position. EDIT: Haha, I’m being cancelled
- krapp 6y ago
  At this point the term has been abused by the right-wing in its persecution complex narrative so thoroughly that literally any disagreement, criticism or social activism which can be interpreted as "progressive" is interpreted as "cancel culture." It's just a catch-all pejorative for any opinion publicly expressed by any "leftist," anywhere.

stelcodes 6y ago

Y’all really afraid of women speaking out against abusers huh? Speaks volumes

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
fghfghfghfghfgh 6y ago
I don't think so - at least I am not. I am however against the narrative that men, as a group, are inherently sexist. Or that white people are, inherently, racist.

dustinmoris 6y ago

The problem with cancel culture is the same as with any other topic nowadays. It is being hugely polarised to a point where one cannot have a nuanced view anymore. Cancel culture is real, but the opposite is very true as well. Not everyone who has lost their job has been a victim of cancel culture. If someone has sexually harassed someone else or was verbally or physically abusive to people then of course they will lose their job. That is a simple matter of being held accountable for their actions. People who do wrong must be held accountable and take responsibility for it. However, there are also real cases of cancel culture. Cancel culture is clear when people are not allowed ever rehabilitate after having made a mistake. The fact that Kevin Hart has been forced out of the Golden Globes because of a mistake he has made more than a decade ago is cancel culture. The fact that people want to force Kevin Hart to repeatedly have to apologise for a mistake which he has already taken full responsibility for and apologised when it happened is ridiculous. At some point people must be allowed to look towards the future and not grieve forever in the past. If we cannot forgive people for mistakes and allow them to participate in society again then why don't we just execute everyone who has ever done a single mistake? What's the point of further living when the cancel culture brigade wants to shut down someone's life entirely? If people are never allowed to be hired again then what shall they do? Shall tax payers pay for them or shall we literally just let them starve to death? Not allowing people to move on from mistakes is really dangerous. If anything we should empower people who have learned from their past mistakes and give them a voice so they can teach new generations to not repeat their own mistakes. Shutting someone down who has taken full responsibility, learned from their mistakes and moved on is not helpful at all. To me cancel culture is the act of people wanting to shut someone down not for correcting the original mistake but to harm the individual person out of spite and hate. Hate doesn't have an expiry date which is why the cancel culture folks can never forgive someone who has made a mistake. We need to be careful that we don't give too much power and voice to the people who act out of hate.

selfhoster11 6y ago
A politically incorrect interpretation of cancel culture is that it's like a religion, except for the forgiveness being missing.
itsdrewmiller 6y ago

geofft 6y ago

Is this true, though? I don't think there was ever "I saw Joe Bystander selling a loaf of bread to Goody Proctor!" in historical witch hunts, whether the Salem one or the McCarthy. I mean, sure, it might be a sign of poor judgment, but why is it a "characteristic sign of a witch hunt"?

approxim8ion 6y ago

Those screaming about nuance in situations where people are cancelled are quick to paint "the mob" in the least nuanced light possible. Not surprising why.

fghfghfghfghfgh 6y ago
Probably because those who scream the loudest influence the view on the following group. Is this different than any other situation such as Trump and his supporters?
- approxim8ion 6y ago
  I suppose not. I guess the homogeneity of opinion on this forum is a little surprising to me is all.

motogpjimbo 6y ago

Ironically, this is currently on the front page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26565861 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26565861. Calling for both RMS and those who allowed him to rejoin the board of the FSF to be removed.