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And these employees are deleting subreddits (e.g. gender critical), suppress media they don't like..it's really surprising reddit has not found attention the sa

And these employees are deleting subreddits (e.g. gender critical), suppress media they don't like..it's really surprising reddit has not found attention the same way twitter or facebook have. Maybe because of their political leanings.

howinteresting 6y ago
Some media should be suppressed and some media shouldn't be. The "gender critical" subreddit for example was full of hatred for trans people like myself. I don't believe that exercising your power to suppress something you don't like is inherently good or bad. It obviously depends on the contents of what is being suppressed.
- debacle 6y ago
  History teaches us that moral authoritarianism, properly executed, is the stuff of nightmares. Society should progress, but not "at any cost" or "by any means."
  - howinteresting 6y ago
    Not at any cost, but this cost is plainly acceptable.
    - i_haz_rabies 6y ago
      "plainly" is an extremely loaded word in this context.
      - howinteresting 6y ago
        No, plainly. It's not even close.
        i_haz_rabies 6y ago
        I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you won't always be right.
        howinteresting 6y ago
        I'm fine with some epistemic humility but not so much as to cause severe inaction. In this case it is completely justified.
  - morelisp 6y ago
    Truly, when Fanon said "by any means", his ultimate move would have been tearing some messages down from a semi-public bulletin board.
  - ivan_gammel 6y ago
    There are different reference points in history which teach us different things. Restriction of hate speech is not „moral authoritarianism“, it’s a good protection mechanism. We all know that Americans are obsessed with the ultimate freedom of speech, but, just like some other provisions in American constitution, it’s a not well-thought idea. At the same time Western Europe, which constrains it more, has more democratic and more fair society (see for example Sweden).
    - i_haz_rabies 6y ago
      I don't trust anyone in the American context to determine the line between controversial speech and hate speech.
    - kortilla 6y ago
      > Restriction of hate speech is not „moral authoritarianism“, it’s a good protection mechanism. Those are the exact same things. One is just the perspective of the oppressor and one is the perspective of the oppressed. > it’s a not well-thought idea Why? You give no evidence to support your argument as to how restricted speech makes makes things “more fair and democratic”.
      - ivan_gammel 6y ago
        >Those are the exact same things No, they are not. "Moral authoritarianism" is a judgmental label, putting equality sign between a democratic mechanism of protecting human rights and authoritarian rule, which is by definition undemocratic. A logical fallacy hidden behind a There's no place in a constructive discussion for such language, because it is not just untrue, but also offensive. >Why? There's plenty of historical evidence on how hate speech supports transition of society to a tyranny. Germany 1930s is the most obvious one (and the reason, why freedom of speech is restricted in modern Germany), but there are many many others. On the other side, there is not much evidence that ultimate freedom of speech results in more prosperous and democratic society.
        DreamScatter 6y ago
- zozbot234 6y ago
  Political/social criticism should not be mislabeled as "hate". Trans-related issues are extremely complex no matter what anyone's personal POV might be, and keeping a critical attitude is entirely legitimate.
  - howinteresting 6y ago
    The specific policy and political recommendations of the people on the gender critical subreddit are very transphobic, and not even in a nuanced way. Fuck the meta level. I'm only interested in engaging with specifics.
    - zozbot234 6y ago
      > The specific policy and political recommendations of the people on the gender critical subreddit are very transphobic There's plenty of actual transphobia occurring, out there in the real world - as in, real hateful violence and oppression being done to people who identify as trans or even just behave in non-gender-typical ways. So you're quite factually wrong about this. Gender-critical feminists do not even register on the radar.
      - howinteresting 6y ago
        Structural transphobia such as the medical gatekeeping GCs want to preserve, and incidents of violence, are both actual transphobia. Focusing on the latter and ignoring the former is also transphobic.
      - debacle 6y ago
        I might disagree with you on one point - Gender critical feminists, whose detractors have kindly labeled "TERFs," threaten the philosophical underpinnings of the trans movement in a way that trans hate does not.
      - stonecraftwolf 6y ago
        You have no idea what you’re talking about. “Gender critical” people (they are not feminists) regularly harass trans people, including kids, to the point of suicide. They lobby for discriminatory legislation that makes life-saving medical care difficult or impossible to access for trans people. They are instrumental in spreading bewilderingly unscientific anti-trans propaganda with the deliberate effect of harming and demonizing trans people, with the predictable effect of inspiring more hate crimes. They organize in order to harass and abuse trans people out of employment and housing. They just straight up lie. And if you were to peruse that subreddit, you’d also see them regularly joke about lying to AFAB trans people in order to exploit them for sex because those were the “hot butches” in a way that was incredibly hateful and, honestly, pretty rapey. These people are abusers and bigots. They’re no different than any other hate group, except that they often use the language of victimhood to cloak their primary mode of social aggression. (This is the mode of aggression that it is most acceptable for AFAB people to express, so they get really, really good at it. It has a lot in common with the dynamics of emotional abuse, and, for lack of a better term, mean girling (which is, especially after adolescence, a particularly effective form of abuse)). So you have no idea what you’re talking about, but based on your other comments in this thread — you genuinely seem to think homosexuality is a modern invention? And that it came out of some sort of predatory behavior? — it seems this is a willful ignorance that accommodates the hate and disgust you already feel for certain minorities.
jonfw 6y ago
People have been complaining about reddit's moderation for years, but I think due to the anonymity it's not being looked at the same way as twitter or Facebook. It's closer to a tabloid than a newspaper
- grawprog 6y ago
  >It's closer to a tabloid than a newspaper Except it's owned by one of the larger media companies out there and has ties to most of them through their connections to the associated press. They're closer to actual publishers than twitter or Facebook are to be honest.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  It definitely has it's issues but it's not on the level of facebook or twitter just yet. I can kind of see them circling their wagons to protect a staff member given past reddit overreactions that end up with the staff member getting doxed and death threats all over the internet. Mostly because of the pile on mentality of a lot of redditors.

howinteresting 6y ago

Some media should be suppressed and some media shouldn't be. The "gender critical" subreddit for example was full of hatred for trans people like myself. I don't believe that exercising your power to suppress something you don't like is inherently good or bad. It obviously depends on the contents of what is being suppressed.

debacle 6y ago
History teaches us that moral authoritarianism, properly executed, is the stuff of nightmares. Society should progress, but not "at any cost" or "by any means."
- howinteresting 6y ago
  Not at any cost, but this cost is plainly acceptable.
  - i_haz_rabies 6y ago
    "plainly" is an extremely loaded word in this context.
    - howinteresting 6y ago
      No, plainly. It's not even close.
      - i_haz_rabies 6y ago
        I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you won't always be right.
        howinteresting 6y ago
        I'm fine with some epistemic humility but not so much as to cause severe inaction. In this case it is completely justified.
- morelisp 6y ago
  Truly, when Fanon said "by any means", his ultimate move would have been tearing some messages down from a semi-public bulletin board.
- ivan_gammel 6y ago
  There are different reference points in history which teach us different things. Restriction of hate speech is not „moral authoritarianism“, it’s a good protection mechanism. We all know that Americans are obsessed with the ultimate freedom of speech, but, just like some other provisions in American constitution, it’s a not well-thought idea. At the same time Western Europe, which constrains it more, has more democratic and more fair society (see for example Sweden).
  - i_haz_rabies 6y ago
    I don't trust anyone in the American context to determine the line between controversial speech and hate speech.
  - kortilla 6y ago
    > Restriction of hate speech is not „moral authoritarianism“, it’s a good protection mechanism. Those are the exact same things. One is just the perspective of the oppressor and one is the perspective of the oppressed. > it’s a not well-thought idea Why? You give no evidence to support your argument as to how restricted speech makes makes things “more fair and democratic”.
    - ivan_gammel 6y ago
      >Those are the exact same things No, they are not. "Moral authoritarianism" is a judgmental label, putting equality sign between a democratic mechanism of protecting human rights and authoritarian rule, which is by definition undemocratic. A logical fallacy hidden behind a There's no place in a constructive discussion for such language, because it is not just untrue, but also offensive. >Why? There's plenty of historical evidence on how hate speech supports transition of society to a tyranny. Germany 1930s is the most obvious one (and the reason, why freedom of speech is restricted in modern Germany), but there are many many others. On the other side, there is not much evidence that ultimate freedom of speech results in more prosperous and democratic society.
      - DreamScatter 6y ago
zozbot234 6y ago
Political/social criticism should not be mislabeled as "hate". Trans-related issues are extremely complex no matter what anyone's personal POV might be, and keeping a critical attitude is entirely legitimate.
- howinteresting 6y ago
  The specific policy and political recommendations of the people on the gender critical subreddit are very transphobic, and not even in a nuanced way. Fuck the meta level. I'm only interested in engaging with specifics.
  - zozbot234 6y ago
    > The specific policy and political recommendations of the people on the gender critical subreddit are very transphobic There's plenty of actual transphobia occurring, out there in the real world - as in, real hateful violence and oppression being done to people who identify as trans or even just behave in non-gender-typical ways. So you're quite factually wrong about this. Gender-critical feminists do not even register on the radar.
    - howinteresting 6y ago
      Structural transphobia such as the medical gatekeeping GCs want to preserve, and incidents of violence, are both actual transphobia. Focusing on the latter and ignoring the former is also transphobic.
    - debacle 6y ago
      I might disagree with you on one point - Gender critical feminists, whose detractors have kindly labeled "TERFs," threaten the philosophical underpinnings of the trans movement in a way that trans hate does not.
    - stonecraftwolf 6y ago
      You have no idea what you’re talking about. “Gender critical” people (they are not feminists) regularly harass trans people, including kids, to the point of suicide. They lobby for discriminatory legislation that makes life-saving medical care difficult or impossible to access for trans people. They are instrumental in spreading bewilderingly unscientific anti-trans propaganda with the deliberate effect of harming and demonizing trans people, with the predictable effect of inspiring more hate crimes. They organize in order to harass and abuse trans people out of employment and housing. They just straight up lie. And if you were to peruse that subreddit, you’d also see them regularly joke about lying to AFAB trans people in order to exploit them for sex because those were the “hot butches” in a way that was incredibly hateful and, honestly, pretty rapey. These people are abusers and bigots. They’re no different than any other hate group, except that they often use the language of victimhood to cloak their primary mode of social aggression. (This is the mode of aggression that it is most acceptable for AFAB people to express, so they get really, really good at it. It has a lot in common with the dynamics of emotional abuse, and, for lack of a better term, mean girling (which is, especially after adolescence, a particularly effective form of abuse)). So you have no idea what you’re talking about, but based on your other comments in this thread — you genuinely seem to think homosexuality is a modern invention? And that it came out of some sort of predatory behavior? — it seems this is a willful ignorance that accommodates the hate and disgust you already feel for certain minorities.

jonfw 6y ago

People have been complaining about reddit's moderation for years, but I think due to the anonymity it's not being looked at the same way as twitter or Facebook. It's closer to a tabloid than a newspaper

grawprog 6y ago
>It's closer to a tabloid than a newspaper Except it's owned by one of the larger media companies out there and has ties to most of them through their connections to the associated press. They're closer to actual publishers than twitter or Facebook are to be honest.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
It definitely has it's issues but it's not on the level of facebook or twitter just yet. I can kind of see them circling their wagons to protect a staff member given past reddit overreactions that end up with the staff member getting doxed and death threats all over the internet. Mostly because of the pile on mentality of a lot of redditors.