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You and some of your peers may not be that way, but a sizable population of office workers probably don't like the idea of neutering their careers just so that

You and some of your peers may not be that way, but a sizable population of office workers probably don't like the idea of neutering their careers just so that they could be more productive (which that employer gets an outsized amount of value from).

InvertedRhodium 6y ago
No, but perhaps we'd like to "neuter" our careers in order to reduce the time spent in-transit, increase the flexibility with which you can do things around the house during the day, and generally avoiding the "management in passing" that can occur when you're in the office. If it was a one-sided win for the company and no benefit being reaped by the employee then no one would opt for it.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  Exactly. There are plenty of benefits I get from WFH that have nothing to do with productivity. My commute is 2 hours each way. WFH lets me recover 20 hours per week and use it either to catch up on work or (usually) for pleasure. WFH has allowed me to actually see my child during the weekdays and bond. WFH lets me eat a healthy, inexpensive meal at home rather than blow $15/day at the local oil-and-carb lunch shacks near the office. WFH lets me discretely run errands around my home during down time rather than having to just sit in my office chair picking my nose. WFH has saved hundreds of gallons of gasoline and carbon footprint from my commute. This past year has been pretty much all upside, and it’s going to suck to throw it all away because Mr. CTO just can’t bear to not have his minions crawling around the shiny office.
  - mr_gibbins 6y ago
    This should be top comment.
  - nrki 6y ago
    As a rebuttal: you chose either the workplace or home that is a 2 hour commute away. You choose to buy $15 lunch instead of making something at home and taking it in. Other people have different situations. My commute is ~30 minutes to a fun workplace with free & healthy food. I do hope you keep your WFH, though :)
  - FlyingSnake 6y ago
    I see where you're coming from but as a counterpoint the following point can be made. I hope you take it as a healthy steel-man argument: My commute is 20 minutes each way. I get to see and play with my child everyday because I manage to finish my work in time. I also cook my healthy home-cooked food with my family and also eat it in the office. I use bicycle or public transport to commute making me healthier. I can always run errands during office time because my team is considerate and understand the needs of us. I interact with my colleagues and tasks that took 2-3 meetings are now resolved in 1 single chat over coffee. The upside is that I have a healthy interaction with my fellow humans, and I can learn a few things from these interactions. It's going to suck to throw it all away because some WFH zealots want to stay holed in their cute little corner.
    - doix 6y ago
      I really miss my commute to work as well. It was a 35 minute walk or a 9 minute bike ride, and I did it 5 days a week without thinking about it. In the morning it helped me wake up and after work it helped me _reset_ and not think about work. I've lost that completely now, I find it extremely difficult to motivate myself to go out for a walk when there is no goal. Also the office was much bigger and the walk from my desk to get a tea or go to the bathroom let me get around 3k steps a day just inside the office. I can easily manage sub 1k steps a day nowdays since my desk/couch/kitchen/bathroom are about 20 steps from each other. Combine that with gyms being shut and lockdown preventing me from going surfing, I am in the worst shape I have ever been. I guess working from home without lockdown would be a different experience, but as it stands now, I really need to be in the office for my general health.
      - matwood 6y ago
        Sure, but you're right that what you're describing is because of the pandemic and only partially has to do with WFH. I've WFH for a long time and I've missed the gym, mid-morning Jiu-Jitsu, and going to the local coffee shop to mix up the day. I think we should change the terminology from WFH to something like Freedom of Work. I think what people really like is the freedom to work how they want. Classic WFH is the closest to that today, but the 'home' part carries a specific meaning that isn't really true for many who WFH. And again, I've found pandemic WFH to not really be represent of WFH pre-pandemic.
ryandrake 6y ago
It’s not even a given that you’re neutering anything by working from home. I’ve worked with lots of people in the past who succeeded just fine working remotely. You’re not going to make CEO but there is no reason why your career should actually suffer working remotely. This mythology that remote workers miss all this “critical” break room chatter about the hockey game and therefore miss out on promotion is mostly anti-WFH FUD.
- phillipcarter 6y ago
  I agree with you, there is no good reason why a career should suffer from working remotely in a largely non-remote office culture. But a lot of dumb things happen in corporate environments when they shouldn't.
- watwut 6y ago
  It is not just mythology, it is experience. Plus "break room chatter about the hockey game" is massive straw man. I have seen exactly that happen multiple times. The in office workers were core team, the from home workers were invariably "secondary citizens". In terms of what tasks they got and how much influence they had. They were first to go when the company needed to lay off people. They were forgotten about when splitting tasks, making decisions, starting meetings, dealing with issues. And second, emotional matters. The productivity does influences how team and management treats you, but so does "connection" and crap like that. If you have jerk tendencies or lazy tendencies, people tend to excuse those much more if they know you in person. Bonus if they perceive you as cool or funny.
- matwood 6y ago
  It depends on the company. IME, it's mid sized companies where the majority of the employees are forced into the office that most often have this problem. Small companies are typically tighter and have more flexibility anyway so it's fine. Larger companies are already distributed so it doesn't matter if an employee is taking another conference call from the local office or their house.
- ghaff 6y ago
  How often do you think senior execs are in the office anyway? I bet they travel a good half the time. Heck, I traveled about a third of the time pre-pandemic. And larger companies are distributed all over the world anyway. Most senior people in my company aren't even in the HQ.
taylodl 6y ago
"Career" is just a word used to make your job more bearable. You work. You do the things those paying you need you to do. There's no such thing as "career." You have a job.
- cudgy 6y ago
  Career is a superset of job and can encompass multiple jobs with different functions ... equating the two defeats the purpose of the words.

InvertedRhodium 6y ago

No, but perhaps we'd like to "neuter" our careers in order to reduce the time spent in-transit, increase the flexibility with which you can do things around the house during the day, and generally avoiding the "management in passing" that can occur when you're in the office. If it was a one-sided win for the company and no benefit being reaped by the employee then no one would opt for it.

ryandrake 6y ago
Exactly. There are plenty of benefits I get from WFH that have nothing to do with productivity. My commute is 2 hours each way. WFH lets me recover 20 hours per week and use it either to catch up on work or (usually) for pleasure. WFH has allowed me to actually see my child during the weekdays and bond. WFH lets me eat a healthy, inexpensive meal at home rather than blow $15/day at the local oil-and-carb lunch shacks near the office. WFH lets me discretely run errands around my home during down time rather than having to just sit in my office chair picking my nose. WFH has saved hundreds of gallons of gasoline and carbon footprint from my commute. This past year has been pretty much all upside, and it’s going to suck to throw it all away because Mr. CTO just can’t bear to not have his minions crawling around the shiny office.
- mr_gibbins 6y ago
  This should be top comment.
- nrki 6y ago
  As a rebuttal: you chose either the workplace or home that is a 2 hour commute away. You choose to buy $15 lunch instead of making something at home and taking it in. Other people have different situations. My commute is ~30 minutes to a fun workplace with free & healthy food. I do hope you keep your WFH, though :)
- FlyingSnake 6y ago
  I see where you're coming from but as a counterpoint the following point can be made. I hope you take it as a healthy steel-man argument: My commute is 20 minutes each way. I get to see and play with my child everyday because I manage to finish my work in time. I also cook my healthy home-cooked food with my family and also eat it in the office. I use bicycle or public transport to commute making me healthier. I can always run errands during office time because my team is considerate and understand the needs of us. I interact with my colleagues and tasks that took 2-3 meetings are now resolved in 1 single chat over coffee. The upside is that I have a healthy interaction with my fellow humans, and I can learn a few things from these interactions. It's going to suck to throw it all away because some WFH zealots want to stay holed in their cute little corner.
  - doix 6y ago
    I really miss my commute to work as well. It was a 35 minute walk or a 9 minute bike ride, and I did it 5 days a week without thinking about it. In the morning it helped me wake up and after work it helped me _reset_ and not think about work. I've lost that completely now, I find it extremely difficult to motivate myself to go out for a walk when there is no goal. Also the office was much bigger and the walk from my desk to get a tea or go to the bathroom let me get around 3k steps a day just inside the office. I can easily manage sub 1k steps a day nowdays since my desk/couch/kitchen/bathroom are about 20 steps from each other. Combine that with gyms being shut and lockdown preventing me from going surfing, I am in the worst shape I have ever been. I guess working from home without lockdown would be a different experience, but as it stands now, I really need to be in the office for my general health.
    - matwood 6y ago
      Sure, but you're right that what you're describing is because of the pandemic and only partially has to do with WFH. I've WFH for a long time and I've missed the gym, mid-morning Jiu-Jitsu, and going to the local coffee shop to mix up the day. I think we should change the terminology from WFH to something like Freedom of Work. I think what people really like is the freedom to work how they want. Classic WFH is the closest to that today, but the 'home' part carries a specific meaning that isn't really true for many who WFH. And again, I've found pandemic WFH to not really be represent of WFH pre-pandemic.

ryandrake 6y ago

It’s not even a given that you’re neutering anything by working from home. I’ve worked with lots of people in the past who succeeded just fine working remotely. You’re not going to make CEO but there is no reason why your career should actually suffer working remotely. This mythology that remote workers miss all this “critical” break room chatter about the hockey game and therefore miss out on promotion is mostly anti-WFH FUD.

phillipcarter 6y ago
I agree with you, there is no good reason why a career should suffer from working remotely in a largely non-remote office culture. But a lot of dumb things happen in corporate environments when they shouldn't.
watwut 6y ago
It is not just mythology, it is experience. Plus "break room chatter about the hockey game" is massive straw man. I have seen exactly that happen multiple times. The in office workers were core team, the from home workers were invariably "secondary citizens". In terms of what tasks they got and how much influence they had. They were first to go when the company needed to lay off people. They were forgotten about when splitting tasks, making decisions, starting meetings, dealing with issues. And second, emotional matters. The productivity does influences how team and management treats you, but so does "connection" and crap like that. If you have jerk tendencies or lazy tendencies, people tend to excuse those much more if they know you in person. Bonus if they perceive you as cool or funny.
matwood 6y ago
It depends on the company. IME, it's mid sized companies where the majority of the employees are forced into the office that most often have this problem. Small companies are typically tighter and have more flexibility anyway so it's fine. Larger companies are already distributed so it doesn't matter if an employee is taking another conference call from the local office or their house.
ghaff 6y ago
How often do you think senior execs are in the office anyway? I bet they travel a good half the time. Heck, I traveled about a third of the time pre-pandemic. And larger companies are distributed all over the world anyway. Most senior people in my company aren't even in the HQ.

taylodl 6y ago

"Career" is just a word used to make your job more bearable. You work. You do the things those paying you need you to do. There's no such thing as "career." You have a job.

cudgy 6y ago
Career is a superset of job and can encompass multiple jobs with different functions ... equating the two defeats the purpose of the words.