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I've had friends with trust funds, who just seem to dither around in life. "Making music" they never release. Picking up little "pass the time" jobs. And these

• Taylor_OD 6y ago
  I don't know. I'd love to have a basic level of income and then be able to dither around with random jobs. I'd love to be a bartender for 6 months, work in a bookstore for 6 months, become a carpenter for a year or two. I'd probably feel differently if I actually had a trust fund since my upbringing would be different but it does feel stifling that in order to have a financially rewarding career one has to stay on a relatively narrow path. And I say this as someone who has made a major career change during their life.
  • psychiatrist24 6y ago
    I regret that I never worked as a waiter in a cafe, and now it looks as if I can't afford it anymore. Or if I could afford it, I would be taking away the job from people who have a more urgent need for it than me.
    • hindsightbias 6y ago
      There should be a class of jobs for retirees just working for health care and socialization.
      • _carbyau_ 6y ago
        So much this. Everyone gets old. How can we not want a society that would take care of them, including some form of worthwhile employment? It is an inherently selfish setup as one day you too will be old. Edit: trying to clarify my thoughts/point.
        • psychiatrist24 6y ago
          But what kind of thing do you have in mind? Afaik actually taking care of old people is backbreaking work, probably not suitable for most retirees.
          • _carbyau_ 6y ago
            Well, that's the trick. I mean there are obviously a lot of details and varying conditions and possibilities. But that doesn't mean they are all useless and should be in an old folks home. To more directly answer your question. Old people don't have to take care of even older people. I mean the whole point is to NOT cut them off from the rest of society. It needs a social component and simplicity. However, simpler tasks are often more easily automated and people generally avoid social interaction it seems. I get the feeling that people would rather a hot coffee vending machine than talking to ol' Carol or Bob at the mom & pop cafe. Some random ideas: - Working the coffee shop on the ground floor of the corporate building. - corporate internal mail - storytime Reader at the local library - non-profit business pushbike/skateboard/scooter store - campus bus service
        • hindsightbias 6y ago
          NHK US is filled with shows of retirees still doing their old jobs as hobbies. Several episodes involve repairing and running trains/tracks/stations on weekends for tourists.
  • ed25519FUUU 6y ago
    You can do that now. Why not? Bartenders make okay money, and you wouldn’t have to compete with like-minded people like if there was BI.
    • draw_down 6y ago
      Health insurance
  • schnevets 6y ago
    I frequently have similar fantasies and have to consciously remind myself that I can get the same happiness in my current role. When I think of opening a bar/restaurant, I'm actually just hoping for more quality time with friends. When I think of opening a bookstore, I'm actually just hoping for more time to focus on reading. When I think of becoming a cook, I'm actually just hoping for more passion and drive in the thing I make professionally.
    • the_only_law 6y ago
      I have the similar fantasies but then remember I would already be doing things like this if half the jobs I wanted to “try” weren’t credentialized.
    • allenu 6y ago
      That's a good way of looking at it. This discussion point reminds me of a Sir Ken Robinson talk (not sure which one, but he has many). After a friend's musical performance on stage, he comments to his friend that he'd love to do what he's doing, being on stage, playing guitar. His friend quickly remarks that no, he actually wouldn't. If he really wanted to be a musician, he would've done it by now. He would've put in the work and toil to get there. Instead, he just likes the idea of being able to perform at a high level in front of other people. I think so many of our fantasies are like that. We think of the end result and want that, but don't think about all the work needed to get there and whether we're up for that.
      • Taylor_OD 6y ago
        Yeah I agree to a certain extent. But I wouldnt LOVE to be a bartender. I think it would be interesting to try it for 6 months. Actually I'm quite certain at the end of the 6th months I'd be perfectly happy to never work behind a bar again. I might even dread the job by the 3rd month. But it would be interesting to try. I was a life guard in college. I am probably the worst lifeguard of all time but it was fun for a summer. Same with being a basketball referee. I don't really know the rules well enough to officiate a game. But it was a fun job for a year. It's things like that which I was able to afford to do in college or early adulthood that seem like they are not possible now. Not without significant financial sacrifice and a large detour of a career in motion.
• eagsalazar2 6y ago
  Not just FIRE people, but 99% of all retirees at any age end up doing nothing of note with their time. But, and I think you aren't saying otherwise, this is also true of everyone who still has to work, while they are working. Your job is just the thing you have to do (if you are lucky you actually enjoy it). Bottom line, most people don't actually have a purpose or strong passions in their lives. Being retired young doesn't make that more or less true but at least you have more space to confront that void and just maybe find some purpose or passion. If you are totally time strapped with career, family, and other responsibilities, then you really really have no chance. OTOH maybe our outside judgement that these people are wasting their lives is misguided. Subjective reported happiness for retirees is much higher compared to the working world.
  • dimmke 6y ago
    >but at least you have more space to confront that void and just maybe find some purpose or passion This is what I'm talking about. It's likely much harder to do this when you retire at a normal age after having lived most of your life. But if you retire in your 30s or 40s? Or your 20s!? Good lord. Think of all the great companies that get started and then snapped up by the big boys because the founders want to become millionaires. Imagine if there was zero pressure to take an exit when offered. I believe our world would be in a better place. I don't want to just highlight companies, but companies can scale and affect change in a way that just volunteering or simple philanthropy cannot in our society. That's why I think so called "Lean FIRE" is such a bad trap. You're giving yourself very little margin to explore new purposes and passions. It's a much bigger bet that you're going to be satisfied watching TV and going for day trips to Niagara Falls the rest of your life.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • GordonS 6y ago
    > Not just FIRE people, but 99% of all retirees at any age end up doing nothing of note with their time. If you spend some years just chilling and and are actually happy, then sure, why not. But there are so many retired people who do nothing, and are not happy. For example, my mother, my mother and father in law, my other father in law, my grandmother - all retired, and all do absolutely nothing but watch TV and moan about other people all day. And they are all very obviously not happy, yet suggestions for things to do or get involved in always fall in deaf ears - they'd apparently rather sit and do nothing until they die. I really, really don't get it.
• psychiatrist24 6y ago
  I find it quite different to find a meaningful occupation, it may not simply be a choice by those people.
• beambot 6y ago
  Elon Musk's life is at the opposite extremum of "floating through life." The man works 90+ hours per week, gambled his entire fortune on two risky hardware companies, serves as a prominent public figure, and destroyed many of his close personal relationships (e.g. remarried numerous times). He's having tremendous impact; I respect him like crazy & would happily back his endeavors... But I wouldn't wish for his lifestyle, let alone choose it. I rather doubt that you would choose Elon's life either -- especially if you were in his financial position. (Happy to stand corrected, since I don't know you.)
  • tjs8rj 6y ago
    I’d be very surprised if Elon consistently works more than 60 hours a week, and pretty surprised if it was more than 50. It’d be a waste of his position and talent if he did. He has the capital and influence to have others do almost all other tasks, his main focus is likely to be on longer term strategy and thinking. He’s also a dad of 5 or so kids. His health is far more valuable than working 2 typical work weeks every week. He plays up the uberworker shtick for the same reason Warren Buffet in his 80s tells everyone he has a coke and Dairy Queen everyday: because it’s part of his brand and very conducive to moving forward his pursuits. Warren buffet definitely doesn’t have coke and Dairy Queen everyday either. Elon’s days of working to the bone everyday are likely long behind him, by decades.
    • throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      Cars and rockets are basically his hobby projects. I wouldn't be surprised if he put in 90hr from time to time because he wants to. He has the free time to do that. The dude is rich enough to afford help. It's not like his kids are missing meals because he's at work or he has to use the extra daylight savings day light to trim his own hedges and mow his own lawn. I'm sure he doesn't do it every week but he probably gets carried away and books himself for a 90hr week just often enough to remember why he doesn't do that every week.
    • krenel 6y ago
      The book about him[1] explains how he is a workaholic . Not just by the worked hours, but the intensity of those, context switching between projects and attention to detail, pressure teams, etc... I understand your point about "waste of his position" and that he could have a more balanced life, but as the books depicts him that's not the case. Nor it was when he was at PayPal or Zip2. Good (audio) book, btw. I would recommend. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25541028-elon-musk https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25541028-elon-musk
• cableshaft 6y ago
  I didn't know you could post fiction on Substack, also never heard of Royal Road. Could you recommend anything to get started with those? Specifically with writing serialized fiction. Or some example authors that have used it with success that I can check out?
  • dimmke 6y ago
    Substack is just a place to post writing and let people subscribe for money so it can be used to post chapters of fiction just as well as an article. I only know of one person who was posting a novel on there, and not sure if they were making a lot of money from it. There's also tons of subreddits like r/WritingPrompts to practice or r/NoSleep to post short horror fiction. There are huge audiences on both of those. A post from NoSleep is getting made into a Steven Speilberg movie: https://variety.com/2019/film/news/spire-in-the-woods-steven-spielberg-amblin-1203130679/amp/ https://variety.com/2019/film/news/spire-in-the-woods-steven... RoyalRoad is huge though. Here's the top story from it: https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/21220/mother-of-learning https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/21220/mother-of-learning authors usually get a following on RoyalRoad and then they can start a Patreon where people who donate get early chapters. Other authors go the Kindle Unlimited route where they self publish their novel on Kindle Unlimited after they've got a fanbase and plenty of people make a decent living from it. This is all the modern version of how older authors got started: by submitting short stories to be published in anthology magazines. You have to love writing and be willing to do it for a long time before you pop off though. The way he was describing it didn't resemble that to me.
• silicon2401 6y ago
  > "Making music" they never release. Picking up little "pass the time" jobs. And these are people that aren't living "leanFIRE" > It seems like such a nihilistic way to live. You're just floating along the stream of life. Things worked out for you, but you have no further passion or inclination to improve the world? No problems you could set yourself to solving? You seem to assume or take for granted that releasing music for an external purpose, improving the world, solving problems, etc have inherent value. I would 100% disagree with that. I don't think there's any greater objective value to raising orphans than there is to playing video games for the rest of your life. If somebody wants to make music and never release it, then they should have the freedom to do so. Your comment is on par with criticizing people for living meaninglessly just for not having children, when not everybody values or enjoys having children. > complete leisure time 100% of the time or picking up arbitrary hobbies. I'm at the opposite end: I'm surprised how many people care about solving problems or things like that. I couldn't care less. If I were to win the lottery or something, I'd immediately erase my identity and go live in a castle/farm in a forest somewhere, making music I'll never release etc until I die, etc
  • munificent 6y ago
    I think it's important to separate out the moral and psychological components here. I agree with you that if your bills are paid and you're harming no one, then you have no moral obligation to do anything more than sit on your butt and play videogames. It's your life. At the same time, humans are a social species. We have evolved brains and intrinsic motivation reward systems that only give us the real deep kinds of life-satisfaction emotions if we are putting real effort into something that we find to be meaningful in ways that help our perceived family or tribe. There are of course outliers who can spend indefinite days just binge-watching TV happy as a clam. But most of us are wired like border collies. If we don't have a herd to take care of some real reason to get out of bed in the morning, we go crazy.
    • silicon2401 6y ago
      oddly, I somewhat agree with your position but in a reversed way. > There are of course outliers who can spend indefinite days just binge-watching TV happy as a clam. But most of us are wired like border collies. If we don't have a herd to take care of some real reason to get out of bed in the morning, we go crazy. I don't think these are outliers, I think these are a surprising majority. It's the classic bread and circuses or Soma concept: as long as people are fed a steady supply of moderate entertainment and material enjoyment, they are content to idle. And I would go further and say that you somewhat contradict your earlier position, which to me came across as being interested in solving problems and improving the world, not just your family/tribe. I would also point out that binge-watching TV is different from creating music, never to produce it. Kafka created amazing works that he specifically wanted destroyed. So from my perspective it's unclear if you look down on anything that isn't sacrifice for someone else's gain (external reward), created for sharing with others (external reward), or engaging with others (external reward). I'm not sure where you get your data that most humans are like border collies, but at least based on your comments it seems like you really value socially-based activities, so you may be overlooking the many others who don't need social interaction or external reward/response to find meaning and fulfillment.
• thesuitonym 6y ago
  >Things worked out for you, but you have no further passion or inclination to improve the world? No problems you could set yourself to solving? And why should they? I'm no fan of trust fund babies who coast by on life, but really, why does anyone have to justify their lives by doing something to improve the world? What are you and I accomplishing right now? Maybe it's just the severe burnout talking, but I for one would love to just stop everything and exist for a while with no tangible goals or requirements of me. Besides that, what good is a person who did the leanFIRE thing really supposed to do? The whole idea is to live cheaply, they don't have a lot of money to invest in making the world better. They have all the time in the world, sure, but if you're putting 40+ hours into "making the world better" (Whatever that means to you) then are you really retired? Or are you just doing the same thing as everyone else but living a much more meager life for the sake of it.
  • CryingSofa 6y ago
    The definition of 'retirement' is a common debate in the FIRE space. Often (not always!) it boils down to fights over definitions. Would you call daily volunteering at a soup kitchen (or church, or whatever) 'retired'? By the way, "making the world better" doesn't need to be large or expensive, at least in my opinion: If I talk to the lone, probably widowed neighbour on my way home, I count that as "making the world better".
    • allenu 6y ago
      That's a good point about the scale of the "making the world better". It doesn't have to be huge. I think at the end of the day, it's really about finding meaning in your own existence, and such a large part of that for a lot of us is feeling like we are giving back to society or helping our fellow humans somehow. I think this is where I can see the author's goal of just writing being hollow. He writes about his fears that maybe his writing won't ever be discovered. It makes me wonder if he's writing because he enjoys the craft or he wants the status of being known as a writer. If he really enjoyed the craft, maybe he would've enjoyed writing more. The status thing would be nice, but maybe he would enjoy having other people read his stories and connecting with them. That could've been something to keep him going and give him some short-term goals, direction, and connection with other people.
• paulcole 6y ago
  > you have no further passion or inclination to improve the world? No problems you could set yourself to solving? Nope! I know who I am and what I’m capable of. If I could, I would do literally nothing besides wake up, go to the gym, go to the coffee shop, read, watch TV, and surf the internet until I die. I know this because I took several years off and did exactly this until I ran out of money. Best years of my life and it’s not even close.
  • pbourke 6y ago
    "This above all: to thine own self be true"
• sershe 6y ago
  It's not nihilistic, it's more absurdist. I think, for myself, it is in fact a better way to live life. Sure, I admire people with a life-long drive be it Musk or Michael Jordan (or even some ancient conquerors who clearly did it for lulz and not ideology), but I personally only feel driven for short, narrow projects at most. And the impression that I get is that this is already above median ;)