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This just sounds like VW Group have made a strategic decision to stop ICE development and they are letting each subsidiary announce it separately. Perhaps Porsc

This just sounds like VW Group have made a strategic decision to stop ICE development and they are letting each subsidiary announce it separately. Perhaps Porsche, Bugatti and Lamborghini will take longest to admit it? Edit: VW Group already has a huge range of petrol engines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_petrol_engines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_petro...

moooo99 6y ago
VW already has a huge range of ICEs in their portfolio which are shared among their subsidiaries, especially VW, Audi, Seat and Skoda. Even if they all stop ICE development now, they have probably 5+ years until their engines would be out of date, so it makes absolute sense to shift their development focus to electronic drivetrains and use the products you already have on hand.
- baybal2 6y ago
  Certainly a better option to spend money in short term. While there is very little one can improve about electric drivetrain, because even a highschooler can make a 90% efficient one, acing the manufacturing still needs huge "experience cost."
  - moooo99 6y ago
    While an electric drivetrain is relatively simple at its concept, the challenges usually arise when you plan on building millions of that presumably simple drive train. I work at a bit automative supplier and see the thought that is required for building a seemingly simple component on a huge scale while ensuring high quality and safety. Designing the product is one thing, but designing it in a way where it can be built efficiently and mets a certain quality standard is where it gets difficult. And that is exactly the part where Tesla is struggling and where VW can make an investment that has a significant impact.
oblio 6y ago
Well, it's a huge decision and my guess is that they want to have as much exposure as they can get from this decision. They're the world's second largest automaker (and they tend to switch places with the first one, Toyota, periodically): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry#By_manufacturer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry#By_manufac... And they've just announced they're going to invest $86 bn in electric vehicles over the next 5 years: https://www.reuters.com/article/volkswagen-strategy-idUSKBN27T24O https://www.reuters.com/article/volkswagen-strategy-idUSKBN2... They've just launched a modular electric platform that will probably be used in tens if not hundreds of new models (in the US only VW ID.4 has been launched so far).
- agumonkey 6y ago
  I wonder how much improvements EV will see now that capitals are going into it hard. Beside economy of scale.. really new battery chemistry, induction motor efficiency etc
  - oblio 6y ago
    Motors? Probably not much, their theoretical efficiency is super high and the practical one is reasonably close. Batteries chemistry, battery management through software are the main targets. To really beat ICEs we need something like 15-20% more battery capacity per weight and per volume (so both smaller and lighter batteries), faster charging, more charging cycles, less battery capacity loss over time, in about this order. And at least half this capital should go into infrastructure, in my opinion, primarily charging, better/smarter grid.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      Infrastructure is the most important part, IMO. For widespread adoption, EV charging will have to be just as convenient as gas vehicles. They've gotten a lot better in recent years, but there's still a lot of holes.
      - anonymfus 6y ago
_fat_santa 6y ago
Yeah, this title makes it sound like they are different entities. Audi is under the VW group, basically the same company, with different branding and product offering. > Perhaps Porsche, Bugatti and Lamborghini will take longest to admit it? Porsche will be the first, as they have the Taycan, the platform is already being exported to Audi and (my guess) will be the basis of a next gen Lamborghini. Bugatti is in a completely different plane of existence though. I'm not sure what will happen with Bugatti but I'm almost certain they will be sold. As a small volume manufacturer they should still be able to keep producing ICE engines. Their 16.4L W16 is practically a work of art. And because they are that special, it will be easiest for Bugatti to divorce from VW Group.
- r00t4ccess 6y ago
  Porsche keeps saying the 911 will never be electric so they are just making new cars to be electric.
  - firecall 6y ago
    It’s odd they say that. You’d think that at some point ICE will be no more, and then what? Porsche kill the 911 brand? Doesn’t seem likely. I’ve owned a couple of 911s and I’d happily own an electric one!
    - kwhitefoot 6y ago
      It already exists, though not from Porsche: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJLdzRJdKrs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJLdzRJdKrs
    - Zigurd 6y ago
      An electric 911 would not still be a 911. The 911 is defined by engine placement and configuration. I think they are acknowledging that their customers would regard an electric 911 as a travesty.
      - oblio 6y ago
nashashmi 6y ago
They should open up the patents. And let other engine developers take advantage of their developments this far.
baybal2 6y ago
Very bad for Formuna-* races I guess. VW was bankrolling engine development for a big portion of Formulas race teams.
- Shivetya 6y ago
  Racing will move on to new technologies and hopefully drive development that enters the mainstream just as it does today for combustion engines
  - baybal2 6y ago
    Electric powertrain is boring. You get 98.5% efficient electric motor with any amount of torque you want. Or you get another 98.5% efficient electric motor with any amount of torque you want. That's about all differentiating features.
    - bayindirh 6y ago
      > Electric powertrain is boring. Tell this to Formula-e teams which found out that even a 1.5 degree difference in magnet placement can effect performance characteristics of motors tremendously. Similarly, thermal management of the same motors change their power characteristics enormously. They're trying to simulate and optimize these things in that boring cable spaghetti.
      - rad_gruchalski 6y ago
        Good luck entering a 24h race with an ev. Hydrogen is definitely a better platform for that.
        bayindirh 6y ago
        If there's something I learnt over the years about any technology is making big claims about any technology is very risky. A small invention/progress/optimization would change everything about that technology. I'd rather have my popcorn and watch the competition.
sgt 6y ago
Probably a technicality, but Porsche actually owns VW Group, which again owns Porsche cars, Audi etc
- arethuza 6y ago
  Isn't that a different Porsche company though? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_SE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_SE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche The latter is a 100% owned subsidiary of VW AG which has Porsche SE as the largest shareholder? i.e. Porsche the company that makes the cars is a subsidiary of VW Group which is then partially owned by Porsche SE which is a holding company.
  - sgt 6y ago
    Yeah, but the "true" Porsche, if you will.
odiroot 6y ago
I heard in Handelsblatt's podcast a few weeks ago that new Porsche CEO (?) was already planning for it. They're thinking how to introduce "wow factor" to electric cars. They don't want to be just another Tesla. Apparently Porsche was always about being "exclusive".
jillesvangurp 6y ago
The writing is on the wall. Most manufacturers are at this point actively milking their sunk investment in ICE for as long as they can while simultaneously developing their EV strategy without killing their ICE strategy. A few have woken up to the notion that this is a losing strategy and that they need to go all in on EV. Basically the market is split between compliance vehicles, limited production EVs also available in ICE or hybrid configuration, or 100% EV only cars. The latter tend to have superior cost margins, performance, etc. VW basically is doing the latter and is now announcing the status quo that, yes, VW/Audi/Porsche ICE development is dead as a door nail. Porsche sales are already dominated by their EV sales and growing quite nicely. I think the Audi eTron is also considered a success at this point. In Germany, an added dimension is that the unions are waking up to the notion that their companies need to change in order for their members to stay employed. Anyone employed in ICE production lines is worrying about when (not if) they will be layed off. There seem to be regular announcements from all German manufacturers about layoff rounds. So, this is very real for them. VW has been converting factories to battery and EV production over the last years and they are ramping up volume production to probably surpass Tesla pretty soon in terms of volume sales. Considering the ID.3 only launched summer last year, that's impressive. I think BMW and Daimler are getting worried about their position in the market at this point (or at least they should be). So, unions understandably want to see realistic plans for the future from these companies. As opposed to e.g. BMW waffling about hybrids as "the future" so they don't have to talk about not having a lot of EV production or a plan for fixing that.
- lagadu 6y ago
  > Porsche sales are already dominated by their EV sales and growing quite nicely. Source on this? Because in 2020 the Taycan line sold less than the 718, 911 and Cayenne lines[0]. [0]https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2021/company/porsche-deliveries-2020-worldwide-23368.html https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2021/company/porsche-deliver...
  - jillesvangurp 6y ago
    I was talking about their growth more than absolute volume. VW also still has a lot of legacy sales. And of course they will need that for a while. But their growth is coming from EVs.

moooo99 6y ago

VW already has a huge range of ICEs in their portfolio which are shared among their subsidiaries, especially VW, Audi, Seat and Skoda. Even if they all stop ICE development now, they have probably 5+ years until their engines would be out of date, so it makes absolute sense to shift their development focus to electronic drivetrains and use the products you already have on hand.

baybal2 6y ago
Certainly a better option to spend money in short term. While there is very little one can improve about electric drivetrain, because even a highschooler can make a 90% efficient one, acing the manufacturing still needs huge "experience cost."
- moooo99 6y ago
  While an electric drivetrain is relatively simple at its concept, the challenges usually arise when you plan on building millions of that presumably simple drive train. I work at a bit automative supplier and see the thought that is required for building a seemingly simple component on a huge scale while ensuring high quality and safety. Designing the product is one thing, but designing it in a way where it can be built efficiently and mets a certain quality standard is where it gets difficult. And that is exactly the part where Tesla is struggling and where VW can make an investment that has a significant impact.

oblio 6y ago

Well, it's a huge decision and my guess is that they want to have as much exposure as they can get from this decision. They're the world's second largest automaker (and they tend to switch places with the first one, Toyota, periodically): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry#By_manufacturer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry#By_manufac... And they've just announced they're going to invest $86 bn in electric vehicles over the next 5 years: https://www.reuters.com/article/volkswagen-strategy-idUSKBN27T24O https://www.reuters.com/article/volkswagen-strategy-idUSKBN2... They've just launched a modular electric platform that will probably be used in tens if not hundreds of new models (in the US only VW ID.4 has been launched so far).

agumonkey 6y ago
I wonder how much improvements EV will see now that capitals are going into it hard. Beside economy of scale.. really new battery chemistry, induction motor efficiency etc
- oblio 6y ago
  Motors? Probably not much, their theoretical efficiency is super high and the practical one is reasonably close. Batteries chemistry, battery management through software are the main targets. To really beat ICEs we need something like 15-20% more battery capacity per weight and per volume (so both smaller and lighter batteries), faster charging, more charging cycles, less battery capacity loss over time, in about this order. And at least half this capital should go into infrastructure, in my opinion, primarily charging, better/smarter grid.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    Infrastructure is the most important part, IMO. For widespread adoption, EV charging will have to be just as convenient as gas vehicles. They've gotten a lot better in recent years, but there's still a lot of holes.
    - anonymfus 6y ago

_fat_santa 6y ago

Yeah, this title makes it sound like they are different entities. Audi is under the VW group, basically the same company, with different branding and product offering. > Perhaps Porsche, Bugatti and Lamborghini will take longest to admit it? Porsche will be the first, as they have the Taycan, the platform is already being exported to Audi and (my guess) will be the basis of a next gen Lamborghini. Bugatti is in a completely different plane of existence though. I'm not sure what will happen with Bugatti but I'm almost certain they will be sold. As a small volume manufacturer they should still be able to keep producing ICE engines. Their 16.4L W16 is practically a work of art. And because they are that special, it will be easiest for Bugatti to divorce from VW Group.

r00t4ccess 6y ago
Porsche keeps saying the 911 will never be electric so they are just making new cars to be electric.
- firecall 6y ago
  It’s odd they say that. You’d think that at some point ICE will be no more, and then what? Porsche kill the 911 brand? Doesn’t seem likely. I’ve owned a couple of 911s and I’d happily own an electric one!
  - kwhitefoot 6y ago
    It already exists, though not from Porsche: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJLdzRJdKrs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJLdzRJdKrs
  - Zigurd 6y ago
    An electric 911 would not still be a 911. The 911 is defined by engine placement and configuration. I think they are acknowledging that their customers would regard an electric 911 as a travesty.
    - oblio 6y ago

nashashmi 6y ago

They should open up the patents. And let other engine developers take advantage of their developments this far.

baybal2 6y ago

Very bad for Formuna-* races I guess. VW was bankrolling engine development for a big portion of Formulas race teams.

Shivetya 6y ago
Racing will move on to new technologies and hopefully drive development that enters the mainstream just as it does today for combustion engines
- baybal2 6y ago
  Electric powertrain is boring. You get 98.5% efficient electric motor with any amount of torque you want. Or you get another 98.5% efficient electric motor with any amount of torque you want. That's about all differentiating features.
  - bayindirh 6y ago
    > Electric powertrain is boring. Tell this to Formula-e teams which found out that even a 1.5 degree difference in magnet placement can effect performance characteristics of motors tremendously. Similarly, thermal management of the same motors change their power characteristics enormously. They're trying to simulate and optimize these things in that boring cable spaghetti.
    - rad_gruchalski 6y ago
      Good luck entering a 24h race with an ev. Hydrogen is definitely a better platform for that.
      - bayindirh 6y ago
        If there's something I learnt over the years about any technology is making big claims about any technology is very risky. A small invention/progress/optimization would change everything about that technology. I'd rather have my popcorn and watch the competition.

sgt 6y ago

Probably a technicality, but Porsche actually owns VW Group, which again owns Porsche cars, Audi etc

arethuza 6y ago
Isn't that a different Porsche company though? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_SE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_SE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche The latter is a 100% owned subsidiary of VW AG which has Porsche SE as the largest shareholder? i.e. Porsche the company that makes the cars is a subsidiary of VW Group which is then partially owned by Porsche SE which is a holding company.
- sgt 6y ago
  Yeah, but the "true" Porsche, if you will.

odiroot 6y ago

I heard in Handelsblatt's podcast a few weeks ago that new Porsche CEO (?) was already planning for it. They're thinking how to introduce "wow factor" to electric cars. They don't want to be just another Tesla. Apparently Porsche was always about being "exclusive".

jillesvangurp 6y ago

The writing is on the wall. Most manufacturers are at this point actively milking their sunk investment in ICE for as long as they can while simultaneously developing their EV strategy without killing their ICE strategy. A few have woken up to the notion that this is a losing strategy and that they need to go all in on EV. Basically the market is split between compliance vehicles, limited production EVs also available in ICE or hybrid configuration, or 100% EV only cars. The latter tend to have superior cost margins, performance, etc. VW basically is doing the latter and is now announcing the status quo that, yes, VW/Audi/Porsche ICE development is dead as a door nail. Porsche sales are already dominated by their EV sales and growing quite nicely. I think the Audi eTron is also considered a success at this point. In Germany, an added dimension is that the unions are waking up to the notion that their companies need to change in order for their members to stay employed. Anyone employed in ICE production lines is worrying about when (not if) they will be layed off. There seem to be regular announcements from all German manufacturers about layoff rounds. So, this is very real for them. VW has been converting factories to battery and EV production over the last years and they are ramping up volume production to probably surpass Tesla pretty soon in terms of volume sales. Considering the ID.3 only launched summer last year, that's impressive. I think BMW and Daimler are getting worried about their position in the market at this point (or at least they should be). So, unions understandably want to see realistic plans for the future from these companies. As opposed to e.g. BMW waffling about hybrids as "the future" so they don't have to talk about not having a lot of EV production or a plan for fixing that.

lagadu 6y ago
> Porsche sales are already dominated by their EV sales and growing quite nicely. Source on this? Because in 2020 the Taycan line sold less than the 718, 911 and Cayenne lines[0]. [0]https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2021/company/porsche-deliveries-2020-worldwide-23368.html https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2021/company/porsche-deliver...
- jillesvangurp 6y ago
  I was talking about their growth more than absolute volume. VW also still has a lot of legacy sales. And of course they will need that for a while. But their growth is coming from EVs.