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Don't rewrite history, main reason Richard was pushed out was a MeToo/racism witch hunt against him. He was not the only one attacked on it, most heads of open

Don't rewrite history, main reason Richard was pushed out was a MeToo/racism witch hunt against him. He was not the only one attacked on it, most heads of open source projects were also a target at the same time.

cmeacham98 6y ago
Every[1] reputable[2] source[3] I[4] can[5] find[6] (literally just the top search results for "stallman resigns" that have any info about the reason) says that Stallman resigned over his comments defending a fellow computer scientist over his participation in the Epstein scandal. Do you have a reason to believe otherwise? 1: https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman-resigns-mit-free-software-foundation-epstein https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman... 2: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/09/17/richard-stallman-has-resigned-as-president-of-the-free-software-foundation/?sh=2f6a0a855272 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/09/17/richa... 3: https://techcrunch.com/2019/09/16/computer-scientist-richard-stallman-who-defended-jeffrey-epstein-resigns-from-mit-csail-and-the-free-software-foundation/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/09/16/computer-scientist-richard... 4: https://www.vice.com/en/article/mbm74x/computer-scientist-richard-stallman-resigns-from-mit-over-epstein-comments https://www.vice.com/en/article/mbm74x/computer-scientist-ri... 5: https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/09/17/computer-scientist-richard-stallman-resigns-mit-after-comments-about-epstein-scandal/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/09/17/computer... 6: https://www.cnet.com/news/computer-scientist-richard-stallman-resigns-from-mit-after-jeffrey-epstein-comments/ https://www.cnet.com/news/computer-scientist-richard-stallma...
- undecisive 6y ago
  I think the issue here is that you've misunderstood the politics of these kinds of "resignations". In the public mind (even if not in reality) when someone "resigns" because of "past comments", they have either been given an ultimatum - "Jump or be pushed" - or they are experiencing intrusions into their personal life (or there is behaviour from the community that makes this person believe these intrusions are imminent) My understanding at the time was that it was the former - there were murmurings of possible action against him, and whether it was to avoid harm to the FSF or risk the public damage to his reputation I have no idea, but he decided to gracefully step aside. So yes, officially you may be correct - but especially with someone like RMS, it is highly unlikely that he just chose to resign because he previously made comments that people didn't like. RMS is very used to making controversial statements and weathering the storm, I find it unlikely (though not impossible) that this was just one storm he couldn't weather - and much more likely that he chose the path of least damage, to himself or his cause or his legacy.
  - 1000units 6y ago
    It's somewhat incredible this guy went through six articles but couldn't find the actual resignation, which is very short and settles the question very clearly. How do we explain this? To the FSF board, I hereby resign as president of the Free Software Foundation and from its board of directors. I am doing this due to pressure on the Foundation and me over a series of misunderstandings and mischaracterizations of what I have said. Richard Stallman edit. Downvoters: You never belonged here. You're the reason this place is garbage now. Don't you dare follow me to the next place. You stay on HN now. When the time comes even you can recognize only utter ruins, I'm not letting you in. You deserve what you make.
    - cmeacham98 6y ago
      I decided not to link it because it provides no context to what those things "I have said" are (and several of those news articles quote or link it themselves). News articles from around the time provide said context.
      - 1000units 6y ago
        Your comments are a vicious and bigoted attack on autistic people, and you deserve to be cancelled. I am giving you the option to resign willingly before I contact your employer and all entities they do business with. Thanks.
  - cmeacham98 6y ago
    Even if he really ""resigned"" rather than resigned, I think we both agree the cause was his comments about the Epstein situation, not a "MeToo/racism witch hunt" that I've seen no evidence to support.
    - 1000units 6y ago
      I would have liked to personally drive a cattlerod through Epstein's brain, and yet I don't think there was anything wrong with Stallman's comments. How do you square that? Maybe you have not properly characterized the situation.
- temac 6y ago
  What "resignation" can mean in the context of such a situation for top high-level people might not be your typical resignation concept for e.g. employees, or even middle management. For example ministers of most gov "resign" when they are told to do so, and yes they do resign, even when this is not from their own initiative, and even if they absolutely would not have done it if not told to. For other structures, you can have various kind of pressure playing a role. We will probably never know the exact degree of pressure and the comprehensive list of who did it, the alliances, maybe the threats etc, and technically it absolutely was a resignation, but given RMS further actions in the GNU Project (that is: not resigning despite additional attempts to leverage his departure from the FSF to make him do likewise here too), I can only say I have my doubt on the total amount of practical freedom he had concerning the FSF part; and it is now probably not just him phoning back and saying: "oh by the way I changed my mind I want to come back", but more likely other "political" and/or alliances changes at the top letting that be even possible.
- K0balt 6y ago
  This is what he said which some idiotic people have taken for some kind of endorsement of sexual assault: "The announcement of the Friday event does an injustice to Marvin Minsky: “deceased AI ‘pioneer’ Marvin Minsky (who is accused of assaulting one of Epstein’s victims [2])” The injustice is in the word “assaulting”. The term “sexual assault” is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation: taking claims that someone did X and leading people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than X... The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing... We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates…" If pontificating as to the actual perpetrator of a crime is somehow being complicit in that crime, then I think we may need to overhaul our system of policing and justice for yet another reason.
  - danparsonson 6y ago
    I think you and I must be reading that differently and I also think maybe you're forgetting the context of all this. The victims were as young as 11 years old and that was widely known (and surely obvious to the men involved); his comment therefore boils down to "is it REALLY statutory rape if she seems like she's OK with it?" and the answer is, of course, yes. Surely you can understand why people would see that as an endorsement of sexual assault, albeit perhaps coming from a place of absurd ignorance rather than malevolence?
    - literallycancer 6y ago
      First of all statutory rape is mostly a US phenomenon. In most other countries something either is a rape or isn't. Second, the term statutory rape is engineered to make people stop thinking and short circuit to "rape". Therefore it's toxic. There's nothing wrong with consensual sex between a 19 yo and a 17 yo. However, in the US they will be put on the rapist list and have their lifes ruined.
      - jkaplowitz 6y ago
hutzlibu 6y ago
But it was no vague anonymous - he once hit on me - lynch mob, but very concrete criticism of RMS. Things he said and did in the past - and in the present. (only thing would be, that his "voluntary resign" was obviously done with a lot of pressure)
- nyolfen 6y ago
  one of those criticisms as a i recall was 'he had a mattress in his office' as if this suggested something untoward rather than him sleeping in his office
  - dralley 6y ago
    No. If you go back and look at that accusation, it was that he was propositioning people for sex in the halls of MIT, AND he had a mattress in his office.
    - nyolfen 6y ago
      > propositioning people for sex in the halls of MIT you are going to need to cite that. the only accusations of 'sexual harassment' i have seen are asking women at conferences on dates.
      - jkaplowitz 6y ago
        That counts as harassment in my opinion if it happens without at least some reasonable reason to believe the women may be interested in dating him, if he persists with a given woman after she doesn't respond with interest, if there is any sort of power dynamic or other coercive context in place that might make the woman feel not free to decline without social or professional penalty (within a community like the free software world this obstacle would often be present in relation to someone like RMS who is prominent within that community), if he makes a habit of propositioning people in professional contexts, or if he asks women out in unprofessional ways like inappropriate touching. If none of these patterns occur, it's probably not harassment, but I suspect he does some of them. And if it is harassment, I'd probably say it's sexual harassment since it relates to unwanted seeking of romantic or sexual relationships in a professional environment.
thefz 6y ago
Honestly I think they went after Stallman because he is a prominent figure and at the same time white, male and not exactly in his twenties.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  Ah yes, the great conspiracy against white men. The porest, most underprivileged and oppressed group on this earth. We have to unite!
  - ertian 6y ago
    Well that's a hell of a strawman...
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      "because he is a prominent figure and at the same time white, male" Oh right. I probably confused parent posters words for .. I don't know. Isn't he or she (less likely) exactly saying this? That RMS was targeted because he is white and male and not because of what he did and said? How is that not thinking along the lines of conspiracy? Exaggerated, yes. But strawman? Where exactly?
      - thefz 6y ago
        The fact that one demographic is or is not statistically oppressed does not absolutely warrant for any of its members the impossibility of not being targeted or harassed. And there is a quite large movement of people online "bored" of white old dudes. Let alone the movement trying to undermine meritocracy in the name of inclusion via intersectionality.
      - ertian 6y ago
        There's a huuuuge gap between "some prominent old white dudes might be targeted in specific communities" and "white guys are the most persecuted people on earth." When the Stallman thing was still fresh, I saw people online argue that it _didn't really matter_ whether Minsky actually did anything wrong, or whether it was inappropriate for Stallman to defend him. There are too many old white guys in prominent positions in tech, and reducing their numbers is a good thing. Sure it'll mess up Stallman's life, but whatever, that's a small price to pay for progress. In other words, explicitly: it's okay to target him, even if the accusations aren't correct, because he's an old white guy. I think that's something people really believe. I also think it's unfair, and shouldn't be tolerated. And yet...I don't believe anything _close_ to the argument you put in OP's mouth (and by extension, mine). No, white guys aren't even close to the most persecuted people on the planet--and yet, that doesn't make them immune from persecution in all forms, either. So: you attempted to rebut an argument by reducing it to a ridiculous caricature of itself. That's called a strawman.

cmeacham98 6y ago

Every[1] reputable[2] source[3] I[4] can[5] find[6] (literally just the top search results for "stallman resigns" that have any info about the reason) says that Stallman resigned over his comments defending a fellow computer scientist over his participation in the Epstein scandal. Do you have a reason to believe otherwise? 1: https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman-resigns-mit-free-software-foundation-epstein https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman... 2: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/09/17/richard-stallman-has-resigned-as-president-of-the-free-software-foundation/?sh=2f6a0a855272 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/09/17/richa... 3: https://techcrunch.com/2019/09/16/computer-scientist-richard-stallman-who-defended-jeffrey-epstein-resigns-from-mit-csail-and-the-free-software-foundation/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/09/16/computer-scientist-richard... 4: https://www.vice.com/en/article/mbm74x/computer-scientist-richard-stallman-resigns-from-mit-over-epstein-comments https://www.vice.com/en/article/mbm74x/computer-scientist-ri... 5: https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/09/17/computer-scientist-richard-stallman-resigns-mit-after-comments-about-epstein-scandal/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/09/17/computer... 6: https://www.cnet.com/news/computer-scientist-richard-stallman-resigns-from-mit-after-jeffrey-epstein-comments/ https://www.cnet.com/news/computer-scientist-richard-stallma...

undecisive 6y ago
I think the issue here is that you've misunderstood the politics of these kinds of "resignations". In the public mind (even if not in reality) when someone "resigns" because of "past comments", they have either been given an ultimatum - "Jump or be pushed" - or they are experiencing intrusions into their personal life (or there is behaviour from the community that makes this person believe these intrusions are imminent) My understanding at the time was that it was the former - there were murmurings of possible action against him, and whether it was to avoid harm to the FSF or risk the public damage to his reputation I have no idea, but he decided to gracefully step aside. So yes, officially you may be correct - but especially with someone like RMS, it is highly unlikely that he just chose to resign because he previously made comments that people didn't like. RMS is very used to making controversial statements and weathering the storm, I find it unlikely (though not impossible) that this was just one storm he couldn't weather - and much more likely that he chose the path of least damage, to himself or his cause or his legacy.
- 1000units 6y ago
  It's somewhat incredible this guy went through six articles but couldn't find the actual resignation, which is very short and settles the question very clearly. How do we explain this? To the FSF board, I hereby resign as president of the Free Software Foundation and from its board of directors. I am doing this due to pressure on the Foundation and me over a series of misunderstandings and mischaracterizations of what I have said. Richard Stallman edit. Downvoters: You never belonged here. You're the reason this place is garbage now. Don't you dare follow me to the next place. You stay on HN now. When the time comes even you can recognize only utter ruins, I'm not letting you in. You deserve what you make.
  - cmeacham98 6y ago
    I decided not to link it because it provides no context to what those things "I have said" are (and several of those news articles quote or link it themselves). News articles from around the time provide said context.
    - 1000units 6y ago
      Your comments are a vicious and bigoted attack on autistic people, and you deserve to be cancelled. I am giving you the option to resign willingly before I contact your employer and all entities they do business with. Thanks.
- cmeacham98 6y ago
  Even if he really ""resigned"" rather than resigned, I think we both agree the cause was his comments about the Epstein situation, not a "MeToo/racism witch hunt" that I've seen no evidence to support.
  - 1000units 6y ago
    I would have liked to personally drive a cattlerod through Epstein's brain, and yet I don't think there was anything wrong with Stallman's comments. How do you square that? Maybe you have not properly characterized the situation.
temac 6y ago
What "resignation" can mean in the context of such a situation for top high-level people might not be your typical resignation concept for e.g. employees, or even middle management. For example ministers of most gov "resign" when they are told to do so, and yes they do resign, even when this is not from their own initiative, and even if they absolutely would not have done it if not told to. For other structures, you can have various kind of pressure playing a role. We will probably never know the exact degree of pressure and the comprehensive list of who did it, the alliances, maybe the threats etc, and technically it absolutely was a resignation, but given RMS further actions in the GNU Project (that is: not resigning despite additional attempts to leverage his departure from the FSF to make him do likewise here too), I can only say I have my doubt on the total amount of practical freedom he had concerning the FSF part; and it is now probably not just him phoning back and saying: "oh by the way I changed my mind I want to come back", but more likely other "political" and/or alliances changes at the top letting that be even possible.
K0balt 6y ago
This is what he said which some idiotic people have taken for some kind of endorsement of sexual assault: "The announcement of the Friday event does an injustice to Marvin Minsky: “deceased AI ‘pioneer’ Marvin Minsky (who is accused of assaulting one of Epstein’s victims [2])” The injustice is in the word “assaulting”. The term “sexual assault” is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation: taking claims that someone did X and leading people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than X... The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing... We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates…" If pontificating as to the actual perpetrator of a crime is somehow being complicit in that crime, then I think we may need to overhaul our system of policing and justice for yet another reason.
- danparsonson 6y ago
  I think you and I must be reading that differently and I also think maybe you're forgetting the context of all this. The victims were as young as 11 years old and that was widely known (and surely obvious to the men involved); his comment therefore boils down to "is it REALLY statutory rape if she seems like she's OK with it?" and the answer is, of course, yes. Surely you can understand why people would see that as an endorsement of sexual assault, albeit perhaps coming from a place of absurd ignorance rather than malevolence?
  - literallycancer 6y ago
    First of all statutory rape is mostly a US phenomenon. In most other countries something either is a rape or isn't. Second, the term statutory rape is engineered to make people stop thinking and short circuit to "rape". Therefore it's toxic. There's nothing wrong with consensual sex between a 19 yo and a 17 yo. However, in the US they will be put on the rapist list and have their lifes ruined.
    - jkaplowitz 6y ago

hutzlibu 6y ago

But it was no vague anonymous - he once hit on me - lynch mob, but very concrete criticism of RMS. Things he said and did in the past - and in the present. (only thing would be, that his "voluntary resign" was obviously done with a lot of pressure)

nyolfen 6y ago
one of those criticisms as a i recall was 'he had a mattress in his office' as if this suggested something untoward rather than him sleeping in his office
- dralley 6y ago
  No. If you go back and look at that accusation, it was that he was propositioning people for sex in the halls of MIT, AND he had a mattress in his office.
  - nyolfen 6y ago
    > propositioning people for sex in the halls of MIT you are going to need to cite that. the only accusations of 'sexual harassment' i have seen are asking women at conferences on dates.
    - jkaplowitz 6y ago
      That counts as harassment in my opinion if it happens without at least some reasonable reason to believe the women may be interested in dating him, if he persists with a given woman after she doesn't respond with interest, if there is any sort of power dynamic or other coercive context in place that might make the woman feel not free to decline without social or professional penalty (within a community like the free software world this obstacle would often be present in relation to someone like RMS who is prominent within that community), if he makes a habit of propositioning people in professional contexts, or if he asks women out in unprofessional ways like inappropriate touching. If none of these patterns occur, it's probably not harassment, but I suspect he does some of them. And if it is harassment, I'd probably say it's sexual harassment since it relates to unwanted seeking of romantic or sexual relationships in a professional environment.

thefz 6y ago

Honestly I think they went after Stallman because he is a prominent figure and at the same time white, male and not exactly in his twenties.

hutzlibu 6y ago
Ah yes, the great conspiracy against white men. The porest, most underprivileged and oppressed group on this earth. We have to unite!
- ertian 6y ago
  Well that's a hell of a strawman...
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    "because he is a prominent figure and at the same time white, male" Oh right. I probably confused parent posters words for .. I don't know. Isn't he or she (less likely) exactly saying this? That RMS was targeted because he is white and male and not because of what he did and said? How is that not thinking along the lines of conspiracy? Exaggerated, yes. But strawman? Where exactly?
    - thefz 6y ago
      The fact that one demographic is or is not statistically oppressed does not absolutely warrant for any of its members the impossibility of not being targeted or harassed. And there is a quite large movement of people online "bored" of white old dudes. Let alone the movement trying to undermine meritocracy in the name of inclusion via intersectionality.
    - ertian 6y ago
      There's a huuuuge gap between "some prominent old white dudes might be targeted in specific communities" and "white guys are the most persecuted people on earth." When the Stallman thing was still fresh, I saw people online argue that it _didn't really matter_ whether Minsky actually did anything wrong, or whether it was inappropriate for Stallman to defend him. There are too many old white guys in prominent positions in tech, and reducing their numbers is a good thing. Sure it'll mess up Stallman's life, but whatever, that's a small price to pay for progress. In other words, explicitly: it's okay to target him, even if the accusations aren't correct, because he's an old white guy. I think that's something people really believe. I also think it's unfair, and shouldn't be tolerated. And yet...I don't believe anything _close_ to the argument you put in OP's mouth (and by extension, mine). No, white guys aren't even close to the most persecuted people on the planet--and yet, that doesn't make them immune from persecution in all forms, either. So: you attempted to rebut an argument by reducing it to a ridiculous caricature of itself. That's called a strawman.