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Interesting story from Africa: My friend is a professional photographer who does several thousand-mile long road trips through the remote African wilderness. Wh

Interesting story from Africa: My friend is a professional photographer who does several thousand-mile long road trips through the remote African wilderness. Wherever he goes, he gets cash offers on his tricked out SUV dating from 1998. The reason is that this was the last year before the SUV became loaded with all kinds of computer chips. If the pre-1998 SUV model breaks down in the middle of the Sahara, all you need is a screwdriver and a wrench to fix it. If you have a recent model however, good luck to you. You're going to have to wait for someone to FedEx a new controller board to you in the middle of nowhere. Most likely you'll have to abandon your SUV entirely. If it really matters, you can't rely on a car that requires a computer to start or to drive. You want something purely mechanical.

vbezhenar 6y ago
That was the case in Russia villages. Old Russian cars were used everywhere and one could fix anything with a wrench and hammer. Those people were reluctant to adopt new cars. I think that it's changed now, as local mechanics got more experience with electronics and stuff. Most of electronics issues actually could be fixed, you can replace capacitors, etc. But of course not in the middle of nowhere. That said, old Toyota cars are still treasury, because they just don't fail. But they're quite costly.
- timthorn 6y ago
  > That said, old Toyota cars are still treasury, because they just don't fail. An assertion famously tested on Top Gear: https://topgear.fandom.com/wiki/Toyota_Hilux https://topgear.fandom.com/wiki/Toyota_Hilux
  - thrwoi4u23434 6y ago
    ... and also not entirely true, as evidenced by the numerous Tacomas cracking in two in the US.
- baybal2 6y ago
  People in deep rural China few decades ago used to have diesel motorcycles because diesel, or some semblance of it was the only fuel available to other agricultural machinery. Now these times are long past, and few Chinese today even remember that.
  - Mauricebranagh 6y ago
    I think the US Army looked at diesel / multifuel bikes for special forces.
    - throw0101a 6y ago
      * https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2016/05/look-militarys-new-stealth-bikes/128577/ https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2016/05/look-militarys... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SilentHawk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SilentHawk
londons_explore 6y ago
When a bearing fails, have fun remaking ball bearings with a hammer... Some mechanical parts are just like electronic ones - you need a massive factory to produce them. You might argue that ball bearing balls are standard parts so easy to get anywhere, but the same is true of electronic components - a 10uf capacitor is probably within 3 feet of you right now. All that's missing are the skills to be able to diagnose issues down to a single component rather than saying "the control board is bad, we need to order a new one".
- ce4 6y ago
  And often times the repair shops themselves indulge in "replace part after part" marathons and see if it fixes the issue. Both for mechanical and electronic/sensor problems. Saw the same with a cost estimate to repair a DeLonghi automatic coffee machine (quote was to replace both broken heater elements, the broken pump and renew seals for 270€) when in fact none of that was broken but the firmware had a bug in one of its stats counters (overrun integer brew counter) that was fixed by a fw upgrade.
- rdtwo 6y ago
  It’s not a hardware problem it’s almost always software
lmilcin 6y ago
That is completely untrue. Your ability to fix a broken car will depend on: 1) What and how it broke 2) Your preparation -- access to spares, tools, materials 3) Your knowledge and resourcefulness There is a lot of critical mechanical parts on a car that are unrepairable, even at a car shop. Most of critical mechanical stuff on a car can only be fixed with a spare. Even changing your tire is just an act of using a spare. Ever broke anything within engine or transmission? Good luck fixing it with basic tools in wilderness. When car mechanic says he's repaired something, there is good probability he means he has replaced the part that was faulty. If you go across Africa, take spares for what is needed and tools to diagnose / repair. If you worry your computer may break, carry a spare. Carry a multimeter, some spare tools and materials to fix common electrical issues. Electronic spares and tools do not take that much space and if you are worried about electronics there is no excuse not to take them. People complain they can't repair electronics on a car but that's only because they never applied themselves the same way they applied to learn and fix mechanics. My father specializes in repairing car / truck / bus etc. electronics. He uses simple tools and his experience to repair things. He has been flown to from Poland to South Africa to fix a large crane that Volvo could not fix themselves. All with basic tools. There is nothing inherently more difficult about fixing electronics on a car. --- As a side note, I would prefer older car to drive over Africa but not because of lack of electronics but rather because of more margins, higher clearances and resistance to wear tear. As to repairing in the wild they are easier to repair because they are SIMPLER, and the parts are more accessible (as in easier to reach them), not because they don't have electronics. I am not expert mechanic therefore I will have better chance repairing simple car. I am not expert electronics engineer therefore I will have better chance repairing car with simple electronics. Does that make sense?
- NicoJuicy 6y ago
  These days, garage owners need a licensed computer for diagnostics. And only official ones can get them and a high cost.
  - lmilcin 6y ago
    Most of the faults can be diagnosed without the computer, if you know how. Diagnostics is nice because it gives you readout in one place, but the output is what the computer sees, not what actually happens. Also, where is your licensed computer to diagnose mechanic problems? There isn't any? What a shame... how can you fix a mechanical problem without car telling you which part broke... The computer diagnostics is a response to mechanics having no knowledge of electronics (also because it kinda make sense if you already put computer in).
throwaway9870 6y ago
A wrench and a screwdriver? Have you ever worked on any equipment at all? If so, you would realize how unrealistic that comment is.
- juanani 6y ago
  Everyone chimed in that electronics are so easy to repair(ofc its HN). Whoever was offering money for the truck obviously knew how to repair machinery but not electronica. So they prefer what they know to repair, lets bash their lack of knowledge? We could also try to, hm, make electronics easier to repair by providing an fn manual and not being so anti-repair as an industry. But how are we ever going to be as rich as Apple and Tesla if we started selling actual products and not just onboarding to a crappy service? This place needs a name change, VC news - definitely more representative of its readership.
rdtwo 6y ago
The biggest problem in new cars is DRM (software) and custom parts (pcbs are cheap to customize). As such every Make and model and someone year has parts that are unique or software with expensive lisences. Mechanical parts especially old ones were more likely to be common and therefore higher availability.
MisterTea 6y ago
One thing is for sure: cars of today are not at all collectable and poor investments. No one will know how to or care to reverse engineer some long obsolete proprietary CAN/lin protocol 50 years from now. The myriad of bespoke modules, electromechanical bits, computers, and other frail plastic bits will be near impossible to repair without an engineering degree and dozens/hundreds of hours in reversing, designing, fabrication. Absurdity. The bottom line is these vehicles are environmentally irresponsible. I bought a 1961 Mack B61 (year and model #'s coincidental) to restore (slowly) and its a 100% mechanical turbo diesel (ENDT673B). It so dumb that the "ignition" key is just a two position on-off switch which enables the electrics allowing the starter to run when the start button is pushed. To stop the engine, you pull a stop knob which operates a lever on the injection pump pushing the fuel rack to the full-off position. I once let it sit two years without touching it; started up with fresh batteries after checking oil and coolant. That truck will still run and be serviceable in the next 50 years. Maybe parts will be hard to find, but most can be fab'd in a simple machine shop by a single person.
- xadhominemx 6y ago
  > The bottom line is these vehicles are environmentally irresponsible. If you’re right - which I don’t think you are - we’re going from a world in which maybe 2% of vehicles are collectible to one in which none are. Not really much of a difference from an environmental perspective, especially when you consider the large efficiency and emissions benefits of computer controlled engines.
  - MisterTea 6y ago
    > especially when you consider the large efficiency and emissions benefits of computer controlled engines. Is that enough to offset the entire environmental cost of the cars short life span from manufacturing to the scrap heap? Today it feels as if cars are not meant to last much past 5-10 years. Just think of that Tesla tablet screen who's flash memory failed after a bug in their software wore it out. Will you still own that Tesla in 10-15-20 years? Of course not. It will be impossible to service by then. The same will apply to VW, GM, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, MB, etc. They're as disposable as smart phones because they are smart phones. We can still have that old school stupidity if we: A. Start buying practical cars with as little gadgets as possible (e.g. the base model). Luxury and convenience is how they lure you into walled gardens. Those extra tidbits increase the likelihood of electronic failure decreasing the longevity of the vehicle and increase operating cost. They fully know humans are lazy and exploit that trait. Don't fall for it. B. Force manufactures to implement 100% open protocols at all level of interconnect. e.g. I should be able to hook into and diagnose the the CAN/LIN/etc network between my cars switch module and the heated/illuminated/dimming/motorized side view mirrors or tail light module. I should also be able to fabricate or buy a 3rd party device that can replace the functionality should the OEM gadget fail (e.g. tail lamp module). C. decouple car function from ancillary function, e.g. removing or replacing the infotainment/navigation/radio from the vehicle should not interfere with the cars ability to function. Likewise the HVAC has no business displaying its status on the radio. These should all be discreet systems with the option to interconnect via above mentioned protocols.
pengaru 6y ago
1998 isn't even pre-OBD2, that's a computer controlled engine if gas, to say the least. The spirit of your comment has truth to it, but it's unclear what exactly is so desirable about your friend's SUV in Africa. In your own words it's "tricked out", how do you know it's not just his modifications that have everyone making offers? In choosing vehicles for such purposes, the criteria is more nuanced than "no computers". There are factors like fuel type, compression ratio (lower the better, runs fine on shit gas), non-interference design (in case timing belt fails, non-fatal), fewer moving parts in general (so you probably want to avoid an entire decade of non-computer, post-smog vehicles, which tend to have miles of vacuum lines and dozens of solenoids to leak and fail). The 90s are kind of a sweet spot for computer-controlled post-smog simplicity, where vehicles likely still have throttle cables and no ABS. But you have to go much further back for no computers at all and no insane pre-computer emissions controls, basically pre-75.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

vbezhenar 6y ago

That was the case in Russia villages. Old Russian cars were used everywhere and one could fix anything with a wrench and hammer. Those people were reluctant to adopt new cars. I think that it's changed now, as local mechanics got more experience with electronics and stuff. Most of electronics issues actually could be fixed, you can replace capacitors, etc. But of course not in the middle of nowhere. That said, old Toyota cars are still treasury, because they just don't fail. But they're quite costly.

timthorn 6y ago
> That said, old Toyota cars are still treasury, because they just don't fail. An assertion famously tested on Top Gear: https://topgear.fandom.com/wiki/Toyota_Hilux https://topgear.fandom.com/wiki/Toyota_Hilux
- thrwoi4u23434 6y ago
  ... and also not entirely true, as evidenced by the numerous Tacomas cracking in two in the US.
baybal2 6y ago
People in deep rural China few decades ago used to have diesel motorcycles because diesel, or some semblance of it was the only fuel available to other agricultural machinery. Now these times are long past, and few Chinese today even remember that.
- Mauricebranagh 6y ago
  I think the US Army looked at diesel / multifuel bikes for special forces.
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    * https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2016/05/look-militarys-new-stealth-bikes/128577/ https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2016/05/look-militarys... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SilentHawk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SilentHawk

londons_explore 6y ago

When a bearing fails, have fun remaking ball bearings with a hammer... Some mechanical parts are just like electronic ones - you need a massive factory to produce them. You might argue that ball bearing balls are standard parts so easy to get anywhere, but the same is true of electronic components - a 10uf capacitor is probably within 3 feet of you right now. All that's missing are the skills to be able to diagnose issues down to a single component rather than saying "the control board is bad, we need to order a new one".

ce4 6y ago
And often times the repair shops themselves indulge in "replace part after part" marathons and see if it fixes the issue. Both for mechanical and electronic/sensor problems. Saw the same with a cost estimate to repair a DeLonghi automatic coffee machine (quote was to replace both broken heater elements, the broken pump and renew seals for 270€) when in fact none of that was broken but the firmware had a bug in one of its stats counters (overrun integer brew counter) that was fixed by a fw upgrade.
rdtwo 6y ago
It’s not a hardware problem it’s almost always software

lmilcin 6y ago

That is completely untrue. Your ability to fix a broken car will depend on: 1) What and how it broke 2) Your preparation -- access to spares, tools, materials 3) Your knowledge and resourcefulness There is a lot of critical mechanical parts on a car that are unrepairable, even at a car shop. Most of critical mechanical stuff on a car can only be fixed with a spare. Even changing your tire is just an act of using a spare. Ever broke anything within engine or transmission? Good luck fixing it with basic tools in wilderness. When car mechanic says he's repaired something, there is good probability he means he has replaced the part that was faulty. If you go across Africa, take spares for what is needed and tools to diagnose / repair. If you worry your computer may break, carry a spare. Carry a multimeter, some spare tools and materials to fix common electrical issues. Electronic spares and tools do not take that much space and if you are worried about electronics there is no excuse not to take them. People complain they can't repair electronics on a car but that's only because they never applied themselves the same way they applied to learn and fix mechanics. My father specializes in repairing car / truck / bus etc. electronics. He uses simple tools and his experience to repair things. He has been flown to from Poland to South Africa to fix a large crane that Volvo could not fix themselves. All with basic tools. There is nothing inherently more difficult about fixing electronics on a car. --- As a side note, I would prefer older car to drive over Africa but not because of lack of electronics but rather because of more margins, higher clearances and resistance to wear tear. As to repairing in the wild they are easier to repair because they are SIMPLER, and the parts are more accessible (as in easier to reach them), not because they don't have electronics. I am not expert mechanic therefore I will have better chance repairing simple car. I am not expert electronics engineer therefore I will have better chance repairing car with simple electronics. Does that make sense?

NicoJuicy 6y ago
These days, garage owners need a licensed computer for diagnostics. And only official ones can get them and a high cost.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  Most of the faults can be diagnosed without the computer, if you know how. Diagnostics is nice because it gives you readout in one place, but the output is what the computer sees, not what actually happens. Also, where is your licensed computer to diagnose mechanic problems? There isn't any? What a shame... how can you fix a mechanical problem without car telling you which part broke... The computer diagnostics is a response to mechanics having no knowledge of electronics (also because it kinda make sense if you already put computer in).

throwaway9870 6y ago

A wrench and a screwdriver? Have you ever worked on any equipment at all? If so, you would realize how unrealistic that comment is.

juanani 6y ago
Everyone chimed in that electronics are so easy to repair(ofc its HN). Whoever was offering money for the truck obviously knew how to repair machinery but not electronica. So they prefer what they know to repair, lets bash their lack of knowledge? We could also try to, hm, make electronics easier to repair by providing an fn manual and not being so anti-repair as an industry. But how are we ever going to be as rich as Apple and Tesla if we started selling actual products and not just onboarding to a crappy service? This place needs a name change, VC news - definitely more representative of its readership.

rdtwo 6y ago

The biggest problem in new cars is DRM (software) and custom parts (pcbs are cheap to customize). As such every Make and model and someone year has parts that are unique or software with expensive lisences. Mechanical parts especially old ones were more likely to be common and therefore higher availability.

MisterTea 6y ago

One thing is for sure: cars of today are not at all collectable and poor investments. No one will know how to or care to reverse engineer some long obsolete proprietary CAN/lin protocol 50 years from now. The myriad of bespoke modules, electromechanical bits, computers, and other frail plastic bits will be near impossible to repair without an engineering degree and dozens/hundreds of hours in reversing, designing, fabrication. Absurdity. The bottom line is these vehicles are environmentally irresponsible. I bought a 1961 Mack B61 (year and model #'s coincidental) to restore (slowly) and its a 100% mechanical turbo diesel (ENDT673B). It so dumb that the "ignition" key is just a two position on-off switch which enables the electrics allowing the starter to run when the start button is pushed. To stop the engine, you pull a stop knob which operates a lever on the injection pump pushing the fuel rack to the full-off position. I once let it sit two years without touching it; started up with fresh batteries after checking oil and coolant. That truck will still run and be serviceable in the next 50 years. Maybe parts will be hard to find, but most can be fab'd in a simple machine shop by a single person.

xadhominemx 6y ago
> The bottom line is these vehicles are environmentally irresponsible. If you’re right - which I don’t think you are - we’re going from a world in which maybe 2% of vehicles are collectible to one in which none are. Not really much of a difference from an environmental perspective, especially when you consider the large efficiency and emissions benefits of computer controlled engines.
- MisterTea 6y ago
  > especially when you consider the large efficiency and emissions benefits of computer controlled engines. Is that enough to offset the entire environmental cost of the cars short life span from manufacturing to the scrap heap? Today it feels as if cars are not meant to last much past 5-10 years. Just think of that Tesla tablet screen who's flash memory failed after a bug in their software wore it out. Will you still own that Tesla in 10-15-20 years? Of course not. It will be impossible to service by then. The same will apply to VW, GM, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, MB, etc. They're as disposable as smart phones because they are smart phones. We can still have that old school stupidity if we: A. Start buying practical cars with as little gadgets as possible (e.g. the base model). Luxury and convenience is how they lure you into walled gardens. Those extra tidbits increase the likelihood of electronic failure decreasing the longevity of the vehicle and increase operating cost. They fully know humans are lazy and exploit that trait. Don't fall for it. B. Force manufactures to implement 100% open protocols at all level of interconnect. e.g. I should be able to hook into and diagnose the the CAN/LIN/etc network between my cars switch module and the heated/illuminated/dimming/motorized side view mirrors or tail light module. I should also be able to fabricate or buy a 3rd party device that can replace the functionality should the OEM gadget fail (e.g. tail lamp module). C. decouple car function from ancillary function, e.g. removing or replacing the infotainment/navigation/radio from the vehicle should not interfere with the cars ability to function. Likewise the HVAC has no business displaying its status on the radio. These should all be discreet systems with the option to interconnect via above mentioned protocols.

pengaru 6y ago

1998 isn't even pre-OBD2, that's a computer controlled engine if gas, to say the least. The spirit of your comment has truth to it, but it's unclear what exactly is so desirable about your friend's SUV in Africa. In your own words it's "tricked out", how do you know it's not just his modifications that have everyone making offers? In choosing vehicles for such purposes, the criteria is more nuanced than "no computers". There are factors like fuel type, compression ratio (lower the better, runs fine on shit gas), non-interference design (in case timing belt fails, non-fatal), fewer moving parts in general (so you probably want to avoid an entire decade of non-computer, post-smog vehicles, which tend to have miles of vacuum lines and dozens of solenoids to leak and fail). The 90s are kind of a sweet spot for computer-controlled post-smog simplicity, where vehicles likely still have throttle cables and no ABS. But you have to go much further back for no computers at all and no insane pre-computer emissions controls, basically pre-75.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]