7 ms·

It's sad that the media outlets and "Woke Twitter", etc, were misquoting him saying he was defending Jeffrey Epstein and doing everything they could to get him

It's sad that the media outlets and "Woke Twitter", etc, were misquoting him saying he was defending Jeffrey Epstein and doing everything they could to get him fired from the FSF, etc. What's even worse was none of these "WOKE" were even concerned with "the victims of sexual assault" or any other noble cause. This was organized for ideological reasons and their goal was and is to replace everyone in a relevant position with ideologically aligned people. They are the kind of people that believe that any speech or freedoms that run counter to their agenda should be regulated to fit their definition of a common good. He did nothing wrong. He is a brilliant person.

dkersten 6y ago
The worst part is that the blog post that started a lot of that literally quoted RMS one sentence and the rephrased it as something completely different in the very next sentence. And nobody called them out for it. He basically just said "Minsky may not have known because Epstein most likely forced the girl into acting as if her was willing" (paraphrased from memory) and it got turned into "RMS said the girl was willing".
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- howinteresting 6y ago
  Yes, the full quote with context makes it worse, not better.
  - franga2000 6y ago
    Does it tho? There's definitely a difference between having sex with a 17yo when you think it's consentual without knowing someone else is forcing her in the background vs. forcing her yourself. Although I personally don't believe it, it is theoretically possible that Minsky didn't know - pointing that out, especially when very little information was available, seems at worst insensitive, but sounds mainly like a very logic-driven mind taking the presumption of innocence very seriously. He also had a very good point about making the distinction between "sexual relations with a minor" and "sexual assault"/"rape" - again, I agree that both should be illegal and punushed harshly, but is having consentual sex with a 17yo really AS BAD as forcing yourself upon a person of any age? As for his last point about the absurdity of the exact same thing being rape if done today, but perfectly normal if done mere days later: isn't it kinda absurd? Like, yes, there needs to be a boundary, but isn't it insane that there are only two categories: <18 is one of the worst crimes possible and >18 is perfectly legal. I don't know a better system and wouldn't even attempt to propose a better one, but surely this isn't the best we can do? To be clear: I don't particularly like Stallman and gladly point out his sexist and generally rude remarks and behavior when people glorify him, but this all just seems like a person only looking at the logical side of the story and ending up sounding extremely insensitive. The term "neurodivergent" would usually get thrown in here, although I'm reluctant to use it since it's far too broad and I don't have any specific information about RMS. Inappropriate and insensitive? Yes! Defending rape, as some media outlets framed it? Not even close!
    - tw04 6y ago
      Minsky was an obese, balding old man. To imply that he should have expected or not had even a tiny bit of concern that an attractive young woman on a private island was throwing herself at him is ridiculous. https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/lomkCENpPXufPOLUkw6mzlgBljQ=/0x0:2736x1944/1220x813/filters:focal(1139x748:1575x1184):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/64985749/588157678.jpg.6.jpg https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/lomkCENpPXufPOLUkw6mzlgBljQ=... If I were in my 60s and a 17 year old child was throwing themselves at me for sex, I would question what was going on. The fact it was on a private island in the middle of the Caribbean makes the feigned ignorance laughable. There's no planet on which the circumstances should have left Minsky with any doubt about what he was getting himself into. I'll just say this HN: shame on you. The fact there are so many people here willing to defend someone that was participating in sex trafficking is pretty disgusting. I have no time for "cancel culture" or "SJW's" but this isn't even a little bit that. There's no planet on which Minsky didn't know exactly what he was doing. To defend those actions is honestly pretty abhorrent. I hope none of you have daughters, and if you do I hope you think long and hard about how you'd feel if they were in that situation.
      - franga2000 6y ago
        Yeah, obviously I don't believe that he though she did it because she liked him. But there's a big spectrum of possibilities from "she freely accepted payment for it" to "she was kidnapped, tied up and shipped in a crate, then forced under threat of violence". Before we knew Epstein was a monster, her being a very highly-paid prostitute would've seemed like the more likely explanation. We need a term for people in between "creep" and "monster" - judging by this specific example, Minsky was in that middle. Maybe he did know exactly what was happening in the background and that would make him a monster, but I don't think that information was available at the time.
      - f1refly 6y ago
        There's no way for a person to know for sure how old another person is. Many girls at 17 have reached sexual maturity and could be 25 from their looks. Calling a 17yo a "child" is not accurate. there's a reason stores ask for an id when it comes to selling liquor up into women (and men as well!) 30s. I have no idea about legality about prostitution in the carrabean. In addition to that, many countries have laws that arent as inane as the US when it comes to sex between teenage minors and adults, for most of Europe it's between 14 and sixteen, although rules for a maximum legal partner age may further restrict this. I'm not saying I think Minsky was unanware, nor do I say I think his actions are right or even non repelling, but I think it's very clear where rms is coming from.
  - dkersten 6y ago
    How? The full quote says that she presented her in a way that Epstein groomed and coerced her to. That is, the blame for anything that may have happened is clearly on Epstein. How does that make it worse?
- tw04 6y ago
  What Stallman said verbatim: >The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing. Only that they had sex. >We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. We'll set aside for a moment that he's trying to argue the only way that sexual assault can occur is if the attacker literally assaults the victim. It wasn't really the time or the place to try defending a friend by arguing semantics given the accusations. I guess if some billionaire flew me to a private island in the Carribean where young attractive girls started throwing themselves at me, and I was the age and... attractiveness of Minsky, giant alarm bells would have been blaring in my head and I think that of pretty much every sane American male. To not take the entirety of the situation into account and try to paint it as an innocent "I met a girl at the bar who lied about how old she was" is more than a bit disingenuous
  - adwn 6y ago
    > I guess if some billionaire flew me to a private island in the Carribean where young attractive girls started throwing themselves at me, and I was the age and... attractiveness of Minsky, giant alarm bells would have been blaring in my head [...] As you may or may not know, some women will voluntarily have sex with men in exchange for money, no coercion or assault required. If a billionaire flew you to a private island with attractive woman offering to have sex with you, then the presumption that those women are paid prostitutes is not that far-fetched.
    - tw04 6y ago
      >As you may or may not know, some women will voluntarily have sex with men in exchange for money, no coercion or assault required. Which is also illegal. And if you're having sex with a teenager for money, she probably has some pretty major life issues going on. Which as a 60-year-old - you should know better. Period. >If a billionaire flew you to a private island with attractive woman offering to have sex with you, then the presumption that those women are paid prostitutes is not that far-fetched. So... sex trafficking. By definition. Which is illegal both where it took place and in all party's country of origin.
- wrycoder 6y ago
  Those who read the extensive threads back in 2019 will remember that Minsky, at the time, commented to one of his associates about the interaction with the young woman. That’s how Stallman heard of it. And, further, there is no evidence that Minsky took any further action relative to her. Quite the contrary - he seemed bemused by the situation. Some of the discussion in these threads strongly implies that Minsky had a sexual interaction and that Stallman was defending him. This is wrong, in both cases.
  - visitor1 6y ago
    Source please?
    - wrycoder 6y ago
      Minsky’s wife denied the allegations. https://nypost.com/2019/08/09/jeffrey-epsteins-alleged-sex-slave-reveals-the-men-she-claims-she-was-forced-to-sleep-with/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/09/jeffrey-epsteins-alleged-sex-s... You will have to dig out the 2019 emails yourself, I didn’t bookmark them.
    - wrycoder 6y ago
      Eyewitness: Minsky rebuffed her https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/339725/ https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/339725/
higerordermap 6y ago
There's a reason wokeism is fastest growing religion in the world.
- koonsolo 6y ago
  What is the reason?
  - ta8645 6y ago
    I believe it is natural human social behaviour that is simply emerging again after a long quiet period after the dissolution of organized religion. IMO, all the horrible mob mentality and violence that used to be blamed on religion, really didn't have much to do with religion or its associated belief system.. rather it's just ugly group and social dynamics that reemerge the moment people come back together under any umbrella. Turning away from religion wasn't the achievement we estimated it to be, much of the problematic elements associated with it persist unabated.
    - 8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
      Even non-religious people have been saying for _generations_ that mass turning away from religion without redirecting the genuine human needs it fulfills was going to be trouble.
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  If they keep eating one another so publicly and randomly, they won't achieve the necessary internal stability. Successful authoritarian movements have a clear set of rules that make you safe as a member, and only turn to internal purges once they destroyed any external opposition.
  - dataduck 6y ago
    Are you saying that they haven't destroyed all (effective) external opposition?
hmpiece 6y ago
Indeed, the woke are nearly always lying in cancel cases (at the very least by omission, often directly) and engaging in blatant defamation. Many cases could be taken to court, even in the USA with its relaxed defamation laws.
- veridies 6y ago
  Then why aren't they, more often?
  - hulahoof 6y ago
    Most people probably can't afford to unless it's a slam dunk
junke 6y ago
I say this in the most well-meaning way, you are brainwhashed.

dkersten 6y ago

The worst part is that the blog post that started a lot of that literally quoted RMS one sentence and the rephrased it as something completely different in the very next sentence. And nobody called them out for it. He basically just said "Minsky may not have known because Epstein most likely forced the girl into acting as if her was willing" (paraphrased from memory) and it got turned into "RMS said the girl was willing".

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
howinteresting 6y ago
Yes, the full quote with context makes it worse, not better.
- franga2000 6y ago
  Does it tho? There's definitely a difference between having sex with a 17yo when you think it's consentual without knowing someone else is forcing her in the background vs. forcing her yourself. Although I personally don't believe it, it is theoretically possible that Minsky didn't know - pointing that out, especially when very little information was available, seems at worst insensitive, but sounds mainly like a very logic-driven mind taking the presumption of innocence very seriously. He also had a very good point about making the distinction between "sexual relations with a minor" and "sexual assault"/"rape" - again, I agree that both should be illegal and punushed harshly, but is having consentual sex with a 17yo really AS BAD as forcing yourself upon a person of any age? As for his last point about the absurdity of the exact same thing being rape if done today, but perfectly normal if done mere days later: isn't it kinda absurd? Like, yes, there needs to be a boundary, but isn't it insane that there are only two categories: <18 is one of the worst crimes possible and >18 is perfectly legal. I don't know a better system and wouldn't even attempt to propose a better one, but surely this isn't the best we can do? To be clear: I don't particularly like Stallman and gladly point out his sexist and generally rude remarks and behavior when people glorify him, but this all just seems like a person only looking at the logical side of the story and ending up sounding extremely insensitive. The term "neurodivergent" would usually get thrown in here, although I'm reluctant to use it since it's far too broad and I don't have any specific information about RMS. Inappropriate and insensitive? Yes! Defending rape, as some media outlets framed it? Not even close!
  - tw04 6y ago
    Minsky was an obese, balding old man. To imply that he should have expected or not had even a tiny bit of concern that an attractive young woman on a private island was throwing herself at him is ridiculous. https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/lomkCENpPXufPOLUkw6mzlgBljQ=/0x0:2736x1944/1220x813/filters:focal(1139x748:1575x1184):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/64985749/588157678.jpg.6.jpg https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/lomkCENpPXufPOLUkw6mzlgBljQ=... If I were in my 60s and a 17 year old child was throwing themselves at me for sex, I would question what was going on. The fact it was on a private island in the middle of the Caribbean makes the feigned ignorance laughable. There's no planet on which the circumstances should have left Minsky with any doubt about what he was getting himself into. I'll just say this HN: shame on you. The fact there are so many people here willing to defend someone that was participating in sex trafficking is pretty disgusting. I have no time for "cancel culture" or "SJW's" but this isn't even a little bit that. There's no planet on which Minsky didn't know exactly what he was doing. To defend those actions is honestly pretty abhorrent. I hope none of you have daughters, and if you do I hope you think long and hard about how you'd feel if they were in that situation.
    - franga2000 6y ago
      Yeah, obviously I don't believe that he though she did it because she liked him. But there's a big spectrum of possibilities from "she freely accepted payment for it" to "she was kidnapped, tied up and shipped in a crate, then forced under threat of violence". Before we knew Epstein was a monster, her being a very highly-paid prostitute would've seemed like the more likely explanation. We need a term for people in between "creep" and "monster" - judging by this specific example, Minsky was in that middle. Maybe he did know exactly what was happening in the background and that would make him a monster, but I don't think that information was available at the time.
    - f1refly 6y ago
      There's no way for a person to know for sure how old another person is. Many girls at 17 have reached sexual maturity and could be 25 from their looks. Calling a 17yo a "child" is not accurate. there's a reason stores ask for an id when it comes to selling liquor up into women (and men as well!) 30s. I have no idea about legality about prostitution in the carrabean. In addition to that, many countries have laws that arent as inane as the US when it comes to sex between teenage minors and adults, for most of Europe it's between 14 and sixteen, although rules for a maximum legal partner age may further restrict this. I'm not saying I think Minsky was unanware, nor do I say I think his actions are right or even non repelling, but I think it's very clear where rms is coming from.
- dkersten 6y ago
  How? The full quote says that she presented her in a way that Epstein groomed and coerced her to. That is, the blame for anything that may have happened is clearly on Epstein. How does that make it worse?
tw04 6y ago
What Stallman said verbatim: >The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing. Only that they had sex. >We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. We'll set aside for a moment that he's trying to argue the only way that sexual assault can occur is if the attacker literally assaults the victim. It wasn't really the time or the place to try defending a friend by arguing semantics given the accusations. I guess if some billionaire flew me to a private island in the Carribean where young attractive girls started throwing themselves at me, and I was the age and... attractiveness of Minsky, giant alarm bells would have been blaring in my head and I think that of pretty much every sane American male. To not take the entirety of the situation into account and try to paint it as an innocent "I met a girl at the bar who lied about how old she was" is more than a bit disingenuous
- adwn 6y ago
  > I guess if some billionaire flew me to a private island in the Carribean where young attractive girls started throwing themselves at me, and I was the age and... attractiveness of Minsky, giant alarm bells would have been blaring in my head [...] As you may or may not know, some women will voluntarily have sex with men in exchange for money, no coercion or assault required. If a billionaire flew you to a private island with attractive woman offering to have sex with you, then the presumption that those women are paid prostitutes is not that far-fetched.
  - tw04 6y ago
    >As you may or may not know, some women will voluntarily have sex with men in exchange for money, no coercion or assault required. Which is also illegal. And if you're having sex with a teenager for money, she probably has some pretty major life issues going on. Which as a 60-year-old - you should know better. Period. >If a billionaire flew you to a private island with attractive woman offering to have sex with you, then the presumption that those women are paid prostitutes is not that far-fetched. So... sex trafficking. By definition. Which is illegal both where it took place and in all party's country of origin.
wrycoder 6y ago
Those who read the extensive threads back in 2019 will remember that Minsky, at the time, commented to one of his associates about the interaction with the young woman. That’s how Stallman heard of it. And, further, there is no evidence that Minsky took any further action relative to her. Quite the contrary - he seemed bemused by the situation. Some of the discussion in these threads strongly implies that Minsky had a sexual interaction and that Stallman was defending him. This is wrong, in both cases.
- visitor1 6y ago
  Source please?
  - wrycoder 6y ago
    Minsky’s wife denied the allegations. https://nypost.com/2019/08/09/jeffrey-epsteins-alleged-sex-slave-reveals-the-men-she-claims-she-was-forced-to-sleep-with/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/09/jeffrey-epsteins-alleged-sex-s... You will have to dig out the 2019 emails yourself, I didn’t bookmark them.
  - wrycoder 6y ago
    Eyewitness: Minsky rebuffed her https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/339725/ https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/339725/

higerordermap 6y ago

There's a reason wokeism is fastest growing religion in the world.

koonsolo 6y ago
What is the reason?
- ta8645 6y ago
  I believe it is natural human social behaviour that is simply emerging again after a long quiet period after the dissolution of organized religion. IMO, all the horrible mob mentality and violence that used to be blamed on religion, really didn't have much to do with religion or its associated belief system.. rather it's just ugly group and social dynamics that reemerge the moment people come back together under any umbrella. Turning away from religion wasn't the achievement we estimated it to be, much of the problematic elements associated with it persist unabated.
  - 8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
    Even non-religious people have been saying for _generations_ that mass turning away from religion without redirecting the genuine human needs it fulfills was going to be trouble.
inglor_cz 6y ago
If they keep eating one another so publicly and randomly, they won't achieve the necessary internal stability. Successful authoritarian movements have a clear set of rules that make you safe as a member, and only turn to internal purges once they destroyed any external opposition.
- dataduck 6y ago
  Are you saying that they haven't destroyed all (effective) external opposition?

hmpiece 6y ago

Indeed, the woke are nearly always lying in cancel cases (at the very least by omission, often directly) and engaging in blatant defamation. Many cases could be taken to court, even in the USA with its relaxed defamation laws.

veridies 6y ago
Then why aren't they, more often?
- hulahoof 6y ago
  Most people probably can't afford to unless it's a slam dunk

junke 6y ago

I say this in the most well-meaning way, you are brainwhashed.