5 ms·

Like when moocs were going to replace the University and now that University has been online everywhere for more than a year nobody even mentions the old moocs

Like when moocs were going to replace the University and now that University has been online everywhere for more than a year nobody even mentions the old moocs that were supposed to cause this shift when instead a pandemic did it.

treis 6y ago
They have to a certain extent. As an example, half of med students attend class "rarely" or "never" preferring online prep material. The fundamental problem is that the utility of universities is more about credentialing and signalling than actual learning. The Moocs are fine for learning but have 0 credential value. Until that changes they won't replace universities.
- dd36 6y ago
  I learned a lot in university. My professors were amazing.
  - dgellow 6y ago
    I learned a lot via MOOCs, professors (who are often also university professors) are amazing.
    - ThisIsTheWay 6y ago
      Sure, but there is a lot more going on in a university setting - particularly one one campus and learning in person - that results in learning beyond the curriculum of a student's major. While I dreaded the prospect of taking a class on feminism, which was a requirement for my degree, that class pushed me outside my comfort zone and I learned far more about the world than I did in my upper div classes. The downside of MOOCs is being able to pick and choose the classes that you want to take instead of a full curriculum that lends itself to developing a more well rounded student.
      - andreilys 6y ago
        I’m not sure that 5-6 figures of debt is worth pushing you “out of your comfort zone”. You can get that for a lot cheaper by traveling and staying in hostels (and also become more well rounded!)
        ClumsyPilot 6y ago
        In some countries Education is a human right and universities are free. Unless you are going to outproduce China and Vietnam, or are sitting on top of natural resources, the only path is through very skilled population working in high-skill industries. Its fine if to occasionally pay for some random irrelevant degree, because the cost of uneducated and unproductive population is much higher.
        exdsq 6y ago
        > Its fine if to occasionally pay for some random irrelevant degree, because the cost of uneducated and unproductive population is much higher. Is it? Imagine if everyone got a 4-year degree - you’d see a dip in productivity (due to less working years per adult), a dip in spending (due to debts), and little productivity gains due to a lack of degree-related work in general.
        imtringued 6y ago
        Just think of all the trades. Construction is a booming industry with a shortage of workers. If you forced plumbers to get a humanities degree they would be worse off.
        ClumsyPilot 6y ago
        What do you mean "forced"? Noone is snatching men off construction sites to chain them to the desk in a classroom of lesbian dance theory
        6y ago
duxup 6y ago
A few years ago I went to a coding bootcamp. I had very mixed feelings at the experience. It was 'run' by the local university, but really was just a package deal they bought from another company. I gave the university some feedback that they have all the resources at the university to do WAY better than these commercial bootcamps... but the folks involved bought the package deal and are invested in it. It's sad, the university IMO could do better, if they tried. Meanwhile the traditional unversity system does work, but is a huge time investment, and the bootcamp system works 'kinda' for some folks ... but fails most IMO.
- willhinsa 6y ago
  It's the innovator's dilemma[0][1], plain and simple. They generally can't innovate a new model that will cannibalize their existing business to a large extent, without intentionally creating a sub entity that is completely outside of the jurisdiction of the existing business. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma [1] https://www.wired.com/insights/2014/12/understanding-the-innovators-dilemma/ https://www.wired.com/insights/2014/12/understanding-the-inn...
  - andy_ppp 6y ago
    When I was involved in rebuilding the Yahoo! Homepage back in the day we had loads of widgets (Mail, Facebook, TV Guide etc etc.) and we were told to remove them because people were staying on the homepage and using them rather than being a funnel to go to other Y! products. The Facebook widget I wrote was better than being on Facebook and it still fills me with irritation to this day they shitcanned it :-)
hypersoar 6y ago
A book, "Failure to Disrupt Why Technology Alone Can’t Transform Education", recently came out about exactly this. In an interview, the author, Justin Reich, explained that schools perform so many different functions in so many different ways that MOOCs neve had a shot at replacing it. Instead, it got swallowed up and and integrated with our existing educational system. [0]https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674089044 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674089044
- rchaud 6y ago
  It's never been about "disrupting" anything, least of all education and healthcare. It's about convincing enough investors that you can, and pulling in as much money as possible before the whole thing collapses. Not true for all startups, but increasingly common among the moonshot ones.
stordoff 6y ago
They're useful, but I could never see them replacing small-group teaching (1 PhD student/faculty member to 2-3 students), a standard feature of my university. It lets them focus on exactly what _you_ need at that time, and can pick up on weaknesses and misunderstandings you might not have even realised yourself.
shp0ngle 6y ago
Don't hate MOOCs. They did not break the traditional learning way, but they help a LOT of people, me included, to learn new things. Could I learn them otherwise, from books and web pages? Sure, but MOOCs help. Did I already attend a university before, so I can guess what MOOC is good and which one is BS? Sure. Are they much less effective than traditional university? Yes. Of course. But, they are not useless and I am glad they exist, even when they were a bit overhyped in the past.
freewilly1040 6y ago
I suspect that has more to do with the University’s role as gatekeeper to good jobs than any shortcoming in the tech.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

treis 6y ago

They have to a certain extent. As an example, half of med students attend class "rarely" or "never" preferring online prep material. The fundamental problem is that the utility of universities is more about credentialing and signalling than actual learning. The Moocs are fine for learning but have 0 credential value. Until that changes they won't replace universities.

dd36 6y ago
I learned a lot in university. My professors were amazing.
- dgellow 6y ago
  I learned a lot via MOOCs, professors (who are often also university professors) are amazing.
  - ThisIsTheWay 6y ago
    Sure, but there is a lot more going on in a university setting - particularly one one campus and learning in person - that results in learning beyond the curriculum of a student's major. While I dreaded the prospect of taking a class on feminism, which was a requirement for my degree, that class pushed me outside my comfort zone and I learned far more about the world than I did in my upper div classes. The downside of MOOCs is being able to pick and choose the classes that you want to take instead of a full curriculum that lends itself to developing a more well rounded student.
    - andreilys 6y ago
      I’m not sure that 5-6 figures of debt is worth pushing you “out of your comfort zone”. You can get that for a lot cheaper by traveling and staying in hostels (and also become more well rounded!)
      - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
        In some countries Education is a human right and universities are free. Unless you are going to outproduce China and Vietnam, or are sitting on top of natural resources, the only path is through very skilled population working in high-skill industries. Its fine if to occasionally pay for some random irrelevant degree, because the cost of uneducated and unproductive population is much higher.
        exdsq 6y ago
        > Its fine if to occasionally pay for some random irrelevant degree, because the cost of uneducated and unproductive population is much higher. Is it? Imagine if everyone got a 4-year degree - you’d see a dip in productivity (due to less working years per adult), a dip in spending (due to debts), and little productivity gains due to a lack of degree-related work in general.
        imtringued 6y ago
        Just think of all the trades. Construction is a booming industry with a shortage of workers. If you forced plumbers to get a humanities degree they would be worse off.
        ClumsyPilot 6y ago
        What do you mean "forced"? Noone is snatching men off construction sites to chain them to the desk in a classroom of lesbian dance theory
        6y ago

duxup 6y ago

A few years ago I went to a coding bootcamp. I had very mixed feelings at the experience. It was 'run' by the local university, but really was just a package deal they bought from another company. I gave the university some feedback that they have all the resources at the university to do WAY better than these commercial bootcamps... but the folks involved bought the package deal and are invested in it. It's sad, the university IMO could do better, if they tried. Meanwhile the traditional unversity system does work, but is a huge time investment, and the bootcamp system works 'kinda' for some folks ... but fails most IMO.

willhinsa 6y ago
It's the innovator's dilemma[0][1], plain and simple. They generally can't innovate a new model that will cannibalize their existing business to a large extent, without intentionally creating a sub entity that is completely outside of the jurisdiction of the existing business. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma [1] https://www.wired.com/insights/2014/12/understanding-the-innovators-dilemma/ https://www.wired.com/insights/2014/12/understanding-the-inn...
- andy_ppp 6y ago
  When I was involved in rebuilding the Yahoo! Homepage back in the day we had loads of widgets (Mail, Facebook, TV Guide etc etc.) and we were told to remove them because people were staying on the homepage and using them rather than being a funnel to go to other Y! products. The Facebook widget I wrote was better than being on Facebook and it still fills me with irritation to this day they shitcanned it :-)

hypersoar 6y ago

A book, "Failure to Disrupt Why Technology Alone Can’t Transform Education", recently came out about exactly this. In an interview, the author, Justin Reich, explained that schools perform so many different functions in so many different ways that MOOCs neve had a shot at replacing it. Instead, it got swallowed up and and integrated with our existing educational system. [0]https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674089044 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674089044

rchaud 6y ago
It's never been about "disrupting" anything, least of all education and healthcare. It's about convincing enough investors that you can, and pulling in as much money as possible before the whole thing collapses. Not true for all startups, but increasingly common among the moonshot ones.

stordoff 6y ago

They're useful, but I could never see them replacing small-group teaching (1 PhD student/faculty member to 2-3 students), a standard feature of my university. It lets them focus on exactly what _you_ need at that time, and can pick up on weaknesses and misunderstandings you might not have even realised yourself.

shp0ngle 6y ago

Don't hate MOOCs. They did not break the traditional learning way, but they help a LOT of people, me included, to learn new things. Could I learn them otherwise, from books and web pages? Sure, but MOOCs help. Did I already attend a university before, so I can guess what MOOC is good and which one is BS? Sure. Are they much less effective than traditional university? Yes. Of course. But, they are not useless and I am glad they exist, even when they were a bit overhyped in the past.

freewilly1040 6y ago

I suspect that has more to do with the University’s role as gatekeeper to good jobs than any shortcoming in the tech.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]