4 ms·

One more reason why credentials dont mean much. People have to be able to demonstrate their skills.

ALittleLight 6y ago
I always cringe when I have to interview someone with a masters degree in computer science because in my interview I ask a FizzBuzz style question and CS masters people, for whatever reason, don't have a good record (for me) with questions like that. Plus, it's just more awkward watching someone flub the question and thinking about CS education (which I assume from my undergrad experience is much more math, algorithms, theory, and pseudocode) versus programming in practice which, in our case, is much more about "implement this straightforward logic".
- albntomat0 6y ago
  As someone with a masters in CS from a big name US school, the demographics of my cohort were super interesting. With the exception of a very small number of folks (<5% of total), everyone either had specific outside support (mainly government computer security scholarships of some kind) or was from outside the US. I think this is because the cost of getting a masters doesnt make sense for someone with a CS undergrad who can easily apply to FAANG/etc.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    I guess I would have assumed that the typical CS masters didn't cost the person much (other than the opportunity cost). When I got an engineering masters (non-CS) most of it was covered via stipend. Opportunity cost can be significant of course.
- nradov 6y ago
  What point are you trying to make? Every hiring manager should know that a CS Master's degree focuses mainly on theory and doesn't necessarily teach much coding. If you just need programmers to do simple stuff then you'll obtain better results by hiring from trade schools, or finding candidates who are self taught.
  - ALittleLight 6y ago
    I was responding to "credentials don't mean much" with my experience. People with what some might assume is a relevant credential don't seem to be that suitable. E: Another point - I know people who do more complicated things when programming, the thing is, they are also able to do simple things. I'd be really uncomfortable about hiring someone to do something complicated if they couldn't do something simple.
- SamvitJ 6y ago
  As a counter-point, here are three examples of highly successful individuals in the tech industry with an M.S. in computer science as their highest degree: - Soumith Chintala (https://www.linkedin.com/in/soumith https://www.linkedin.com/in/soumith): Co-inventor of PyTorch; Distinguished Engineer at Facebook AI - Jacob Devlin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacob-devlin-135ab048 https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacob-devlin-135ab048): Inventor of BERT; SWE at Google AI - Yuxin Wu (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ppwwyyxx https://www.linkedin.com/in/ppwwyyxx): Lead developer on Detectron2; SWE at Facebook AI If we include successful entrepreneurs and CEOs, the list becomes larger still. Of course, these examples are cherry-picked, but I'd be careful with your assumptions. Many people who pursue Master's degrees in the U.S. are international students who didn't have the luxury to do their undergrad in the U.S., a large number of whom have gone on to great success in the tech industry. At the high end, M.S. in computer science grads represent the best and brightest of three groups: international students, PhD dropouts, and those curious enough about CS to pursue it at the graduate level.
  - ALittleLight 6y ago
    I don't think that's a counter point. I'm not saying that CS masters people can't be successful employees or entrepreneurs, just that in my experience the ones I've interviewed tend not to do well on simple "implement this function" type questions. I'm not making a broader claim, just stating my experience.
    - SamvitJ 6y ago
      It is a counter-point to "I always cringe when I have to interview someone with a masters degree in computer science", because there seems to be a generalization encoded there that people with master's degrees tend to be weak at interviewing and weak on practical skills (based on the rest of your comment).
- Nasrudith 6y ago
  FizzBuzz is used so much because the majority of interviewed people fail at it. Which implicitly includes experienced people too.
- dfraser992 6y ago
  Were they "real" M.Sc degrees or "conversion course" M.Sc degrees (the equivalent of an expensive boot camp with a official piece of paper at the end)? I'm part time staff at a UK university which offers a 'conversion course' degree. It is vaguely annoying (from my vantage point of 25 years in industry) that these students are getting M.Sc degrees - the good students learn the basics of programming, so I'm not throwing shade on them, but I would hire someone with a B.Sc over them if I had to choose. Those with a B.Sc are more knowledgeable due to having 3 years experience in IT stuff versus just one. But they are getting M.Sc degrees because part of the course involves learning how to "do research", i.e. the process. That apparently is a general requirement for students getting an accredited M.Sc degree. But it doesn't have to be original research... or even good research. Honestly, the whole program is sort of a diploma mill and given that students typically go into the program in order to retool and get a job in IT, they would be better served learning more focused stuff like one does in a boot camp than "how to do research". Or maybe a not-MSc degree, but something that indicates they're good enough to be junior programmers but are not really MSc level. The uni is trying to play the "boot camp" game while adhering to "academic standards". I OTOH went thru a "real" MSc program from a much better uni (Edinburgh) and you absolutely had to have the basics of IT under your belt before taking that program.
BurningFrog 6y ago
Only ½ joking: Finding a good ghostwriter demonstrates a number of useful skills.
- zdragnar 6y ago
  https://www.cnn.com/2013/01/17/business/us-outsource-job-china https://www.cnn.com/2013/01/17/business/us-outsource-job-chi... My favorite bit of the story is that he had been known as the best developer in house, and in a different article I can't find anymore there were more quotes from his coworkers about how it seemed like he could do anything, no matter the technology / programming language.

I always cringe when I have to interview someone with a masters degree in computer science because in my interview I ask a FizzBuzz style question and CS masters people, for whatever reason, don't have a good record (for me) with questions like that. Plus, it's just more awkward watching someone flub the question and thinking about CS education (which I assume from my undergrad experience is much more math, algorithms, theory, and pseudocode) versus programming in practice which, in our case, is much more about "implement this straightforward logic".

albntomat0 6y ago
As someone with a masters in CS from a big name US school, the demographics of my cohort were super interesting. With the exception of a very small number of folks (<5% of total), everyone either had specific outside support (mainly government computer security scholarships of some kind) or was from outside the US. I think this is because the cost of getting a masters doesnt make sense for someone with a CS undergrad who can easily apply to FAANG/etc.
- ghaff 6y ago
  I guess I would have assumed that the typical CS masters didn't cost the person much (other than the opportunity cost). When I got an engineering masters (non-CS) most of it was covered via stipend. Opportunity cost can be significant of course.
nradov 6y ago
What point are you trying to make? Every hiring manager should know that a CS Master's degree focuses mainly on theory and doesn't necessarily teach much coding. If you just need programmers to do simple stuff then you'll obtain better results by hiring from trade schools, or finding candidates who are self taught.
- ALittleLight 6y ago
  I was responding to "credentials don't mean much" with my experience. People with what some might assume is a relevant credential don't seem to be that suitable. E: Another point - I know people who do more complicated things when programming, the thing is, they are also able to do simple things. I'd be really uncomfortable about hiring someone to do something complicated if they couldn't do something simple.
SamvitJ 6y ago
As a counter-point, here are three examples of highly successful individuals in the tech industry with an M.S. in computer science as their highest degree: - Soumith Chintala (https://www.linkedin.com/in/soumith https://www.linkedin.com/in/soumith): Co-inventor of PyTorch; Distinguished Engineer at Facebook AI - Jacob Devlin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacob-devlin-135ab048 https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacob-devlin-135ab048): Inventor of BERT; SWE at Google AI - Yuxin Wu (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ppwwyyxx https://www.linkedin.com/in/ppwwyyxx): Lead developer on Detectron2; SWE at Facebook AI If we include successful entrepreneurs and CEOs, the list becomes larger still. Of course, these examples are cherry-picked, but I'd be careful with your assumptions. Many people who pursue Master's degrees in the U.S. are international students who didn't have the luxury to do their undergrad in the U.S., a large number of whom have gone on to great success in the tech industry. At the high end, M.S. in computer science grads represent the best and brightest of three groups: international students, PhD dropouts, and those curious enough about CS to pursue it at the graduate level.
- ALittleLight 6y ago
  I don't think that's a counter point. I'm not saying that CS masters people can't be successful employees or entrepreneurs, just that in my experience the ones I've interviewed tend not to do well on simple "implement this function" type questions. I'm not making a broader claim, just stating my experience.
  - SamvitJ 6y ago
    It is a counter-point to "I always cringe when I have to interview someone with a masters degree in computer science", because there seems to be a generalization encoded there that people with master's degrees tend to be weak at interviewing and weak on practical skills (based on the rest of your comment).
Nasrudith 6y ago
FizzBuzz is used so much because the majority of interviewed people fail at it. Which implicitly includes experienced people too.
dfraser992 6y ago
Were they "real" M.Sc degrees or "conversion course" M.Sc degrees (the equivalent of an expensive boot camp with a official piece of paper at the end)? I'm part time staff at a UK university which offers a 'conversion course' degree. It is vaguely annoying (from my vantage point of 25 years in industry) that these students are getting M.Sc degrees - the good students learn the basics of programming, so I'm not throwing shade on them, but I would hire someone with a B.Sc over them if I had to choose. Those with a B.Sc are more knowledgeable due to having 3 years experience in IT stuff versus just one. But they are getting M.Sc degrees because part of the course involves learning how to "do research", i.e. the process. That apparently is a general requirement for students getting an accredited M.Sc degree. But it doesn't have to be original research... or even good research. Honestly, the whole program is sort of a diploma mill and given that students typically go into the program in order to retool and get a job in IT, they would be better served learning more focused stuff like one does in a boot camp than "how to do research". Or maybe a not-MSc degree, but something that indicates they're good enough to be junior programmers but are not really MSc level. The uni is trying to play the "boot camp" game while adhering to "academic standards". I OTOH went thru a "real" MSc program from a much better uni (Edinburgh) and you absolutely had to have the basics of IT under your belt before taking that program.

BurningFrog 6y ago

Only ½ joking: Finding a good ghostwriter demonstrates a number of useful skills.

zdragnar 6y ago
https://www.cnn.com/2013/01/17/business/us-outsource-job-china https://www.cnn.com/2013/01/17/business/us-outsource-job-chi... My favorite bit of the story is that he had been known as the best developer in house, and in a different article I can't find anymore there were more quotes from his coworkers about how it seemed like he could do anything, no matter the technology / programming language.