6 ms·

> This is literally abuse. It's also not normal. I agree it's abuse, but it's more normal than people realize when there is a lot of money on the line in high

> This is literally abuse. It's also not normal. I agree it's abuse, but it's more normal than people realize when there is a lot of money on the line in high stress situations. The solution is to remove some of the stress, but I'm not sure how easily that can be done when so much money is on the line since they naturally go together. I remember working in a 'startup' in the 90s with people routinely yelling at each other. I remember hearing the owner stomping around, slamming doors and yelling at my boss (who was awesome). Then my boss came in and asked me if I could build a client demo. After I responded sure, he said we needed it in 3 hours so he could present it and hopefully get the next check. Let's just say I may have then yelled at the computer while coding. Fun times :) Heck, one of the owners decked the other one in a meeting, walked out, and we never saw him again.

uncledave 6y ago
Yeah it’s not abnormal unfortunately. Anywhere that “alpha personalities” are likely to clash is bound to result in some physical clashes. My own experience was getting into a fist fight with someone after I told them to fuck off and open a ticket because I wasn’t going to drop everything and fix his shit right there right then. Fist fights never go how you expect them to which was fortunate for me in the end. We’re still friends 20 years later :) Edit: I’d like to clarify that this is in no way acceptable but it is normal to some degree.
- scsilver 6y ago
  Thank you for sharing this. Its crazy how worked uo we get in the crucible of the moment. Do either of you even remember what the ticket was fixing?
  - uncledave 6y ago
    Not a clue. Wasn’t really important though in the scale of things. You only work that out as you get older.
    - onli 6y ago
      Sounds like it wasn't about the ticket, but about not accepting abuse. Likely worth it and the right reaction. That's what I don't get in these abusive industries: Just because someone is higher up in a hierarchy he is not strong, he is not untouchable, the police is not on his side. Those pencil pusher bullies get in the face of the wrong young new intern and they get trashed. Should happen all the time. Should end such behaviour very fast. But doesn't. Seems like it's baked into recruiting, only hiring people that wouldn't even think about defending themselves.
  - sdwr 6y ago
    crucible of the moment. I like that phrase!
    - Geezus_42 6y ago
      I read it as cubicle at first. Haha
- andrei_says_ 6y ago
  a reminder that the scientist who coined the term 'alpha male' to describe wolves abandoned it as useless years ago davemech.org/news.html https://www.businessinsider.com/no-such-thing-alpha-male-2016-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/no-such-thing-alpha-male-201...
  - kelnos 6y ago
    It's great to learn this; I hear so many "alpha male" references (or a gender-neutral "alpha") when talking about human behavior, and it's always rubbed me the wrong way. Even if wolves did have this sort of social structure, it's absurd to immediately assume that humans work the same way. Good to know it's rubbish even when talking about wolves.
JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> stomping around, slamming doors and yelling at my boss This is fine. It's a hostile work environment. But if everyone's on the same page, it can, I don't want to say work, but not totally suck. Especially if there's good money. Threatening to punch people, smashing things near someone to show them who's boss and "getting physical" is different. It's abuse. It's illegal. It was somewhat commonplace in and before the 80s [1], but it has not been common for decades now nor should it be. [1] I have a theory for this, and it involves leaded gasoline.
- yowlingcat 6y ago
  > [1] I have a theory for this, and it involves leaded gasoline. May just be coincidence but this is the second time in the past few weeks I've heard about this, and I'm curious. Would you mind going into more detail?
  - matwood 6y ago
    Basically there's a time period where people were growing up with a low level of lead poisoning caused by the burning of leaded gasoline.
  - sjg007 6y ago
    Lead causes brain damage specifically in executive function and leads to aggression, impulsivity and behavioral control issues.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    What others have said. It's also a fairly prominent theory that it's at least a factor in why crime rates have dropped.
  - duckfang 6y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93crime_hypothesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93crime_hypothesi... There's a LOT to chew on in there.
- smcg 6y ago
mcculley 6y ago
Many industries have stress. It is a natural and obvious side effect of competition. Some organizational cultures will work to curb asshole behavior, some will not.
cycomanic 6y ago
Regarding acting calm in stressful situation I encourage anyone to watch the last America's Cup races. Even if you're not into sailing it's quite amazing. These boats are incredibly fast (40kt boat speed out of 10 kt wind) and extremely difficult to handle, they have videos and all the crew intercoms on live TV and the calm instructions of the helmsmen and other crew even when things really go wrong is absolutely amazing. Extremely focused without any panic, yelling, anger.
- adrianpike 6y ago
  There's such a shocking difference between amateur sailboat racing and the pro's. Your average weekend beercan race worldwide is an order of magnitude slower, with loads and danger a fraction of what you see in even a fast circuit boat, and everyone's just screaming at each other thinking more volume will unwrap the spinnaker faster. It really really hammers home the power of training.
- noodlesUK 6y ago
  You can see this in any well-disciplined team (often found in sports). Years of training (and practice) and good examples set by those who came before them can make people work smoothly even in incredibly high stress situations. See well-trained pro firefighters, ER medical teams, or fighter pilots.
  - matwood 6y ago
    I have found that engaging in stressful situations that force me to control the stress translates all across my life. Training Jiu-Jitsu for example forced me to control stress while being physically attacked by another person. It makes work stresses seem minor in comparison, and has made me better equipped to recognize a stressful situation and control my response.
kelnos 6y ago
About ten years ago I worked at a startup where things could get heated at times, though I doubt it's anywhere near as bad as what many people here are talking about. I remember two instances pretty clearly: in one, the CEO and head of architecture were having a 1:1. The CEO got a bit shouty, and the head of architecture very calmly said, "Don't talk to me like that. If you do it again, I'm walking out the door and never coming back". Unfortunately in another incident, with a different coworker and his boss, my coworker did get pissed enough at his boss' tone that he walked out of the conference room, slammed the door, left the building, and never came back. This is all just toxic garbage. The people in power require that their employees "act professionally", but then feel free to heap verbal abuse on their people. Not ok in any situation. If you're unhappy enough with an employee's performance that you feel the need to yell at them, you either just have anger management issues and should see a therapist, or they're a bad employee, and you should step back, calm down, and after you're calm, fire them. > Then my boss came in and asked me if I could build a client demo. After I responded sure, he said we needed it in 3 hours This is why I never agree to anything until they tell me the deadline :-P
- mbrodersen 6y ago
  In some companies, “act professionally” is code word for shut up and accept whatever abuse gets thrown at you.

uncledave 6y ago

Yeah it’s not abnormal unfortunately. Anywhere that “alpha personalities” are likely to clash is bound to result in some physical clashes. My own experience was getting into a fist fight with someone after I told them to fuck off and open a ticket because I wasn’t going to drop everything and fix his shit right there right then. Fist fights never go how you expect them to which was fortunate for me in the end. We’re still friends 20 years later :) Edit: I’d like to clarify that this is in no way acceptable but it is normal to some degree.

scsilver 6y ago
Thank you for sharing this. Its crazy how worked uo we get in the crucible of the moment. Do either of you even remember what the ticket was fixing?
- uncledave 6y ago
  Not a clue. Wasn’t really important though in the scale of things. You only work that out as you get older.
  - onli 6y ago
    Sounds like it wasn't about the ticket, but about not accepting abuse. Likely worth it and the right reaction. That's what I don't get in these abusive industries: Just because someone is higher up in a hierarchy he is not strong, he is not untouchable, the police is not on his side. Those pencil pusher bullies get in the face of the wrong young new intern and they get trashed. Should happen all the time. Should end such behaviour very fast. But doesn't. Seems like it's baked into recruiting, only hiring people that wouldn't even think about defending themselves.
- sdwr 6y ago
  crucible of the moment. I like that phrase!
  - Geezus_42 6y ago
    I read it as cubicle at first. Haha
andrei_says_ 6y ago
a reminder that the scientist who coined the term 'alpha male' to describe wolves abandoned it as useless years ago davemech.org/news.html https://www.businessinsider.com/no-such-thing-alpha-male-2016-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/no-such-thing-alpha-male-201...
- kelnos 6y ago
  It's great to learn this; I hear so many "alpha male" references (or a gender-neutral "alpha") when talking about human behavior, and it's always rubbed me the wrong way. Even if wolves did have this sort of social structure, it's absurd to immediately assume that humans work the same way. Good to know it's rubbish even when talking about wolves.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

> stomping around, slamming doors and yelling at my boss This is fine. It's a hostile work environment. But if everyone's on the same page, it can, I don't want to say work, but not totally suck. Especially if there's good money. Threatening to punch people, smashing things near someone to show them who's boss and "getting physical" is different. It's abuse. It's illegal. It was somewhat commonplace in and before the 80s [1], but it has not been common for decades now nor should it be. [1] I have a theory for this, and it involves leaded gasoline.

yowlingcat 6y ago
> [1] I have a theory for this, and it involves leaded gasoline. May just be coincidence but this is the second time in the past few weeks I've heard about this, and I'm curious. Would you mind going into more detail?
- matwood 6y ago
  Basically there's a time period where people were growing up with a low level of lead poisoning caused by the burning of leaded gasoline.
- sjg007 6y ago
  Lead causes brain damage specifically in executive function and leads to aggression, impulsivity and behavioral control issues.
- ghaff 6y ago
  What others have said. It's also a fairly prominent theory that it's at least a factor in why crime rates have dropped.
- duckfang 6y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93crime_hypothesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93crime_hypothesi... There's a LOT to chew on in there.
smcg 6y ago

mcculley 6y ago

Many industries have stress. It is a natural and obvious side effect of competition. Some organizational cultures will work to curb asshole behavior, some will not.

cycomanic 6y ago

Regarding acting calm in stressful situation I encourage anyone to watch the last America's Cup races. Even if you're not into sailing it's quite amazing. These boats are incredibly fast (40kt boat speed out of 10 kt wind) and extremely difficult to handle, they have videos and all the crew intercoms on live TV and the calm instructions of the helmsmen and other crew even when things really go wrong is absolutely amazing. Extremely focused without any panic, yelling, anger.

adrianpike 6y ago
There's such a shocking difference between amateur sailboat racing and the pro's. Your average weekend beercan race worldwide is an order of magnitude slower, with loads and danger a fraction of what you see in even a fast circuit boat, and everyone's just screaming at each other thinking more volume will unwrap the spinnaker faster. It really really hammers home the power of training.
noodlesUK 6y ago
You can see this in any well-disciplined team (often found in sports). Years of training (and practice) and good examples set by those who came before them can make people work smoothly even in incredibly high stress situations. See well-trained pro firefighters, ER medical teams, or fighter pilots.
- matwood 6y ago
  I have found that engaging in stressful situations that force me to control the stress translates all across my life. Training Jiu-Jitsu for example forced me to control stress while being physically attacked by another person. It makes work stresses seem minor in comparison, and has made me better equipped to recognize a stressful situation and control my response.

kelnos 6y ago

About ten years ago I worked at a startup where things could get heated at times, though I doubt it's anywhere near as bad as what many people here are talking about. I remember two instances pretty clearly: in one, the CEO and head of architecture were having a 1:1. The CEO got a bit shouty, and the head of architecture very calmly said, "Don't talk to me like that. If you do it again, I'm walking out the door and never coming back". Unfortunately in another incident, with a different coworker and his boss, my coworker did get pissed enough at his boss' tone that he walked out of the conference room, slammed the door, left the building, and never came back. This is all just toxic garbage. The people in power require that their employees "act professionally", but then feel free to heap verbal abuse on their people. Not ok in any situation. If you're unhappy enough with an employee's performance that you feel the need to yell at them, you either just have anger management issues and should see a therapist, or they're a bad employee, and you should step back, calm down, and after you're calm, fire them. > Then my boss came in and asked me if I could build a client demo. After I responded sure, he said we needed it in 3 hours This is why I never agree to anything until they tell me the deadline :-P

mbrodersen 6y ago
In some companies, “act professionally” is code word for shut up and accept whatever abuse gets thrown at you.