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> somehow turning the fact that Spartans had slaves that had no rights into an indictment of Spartmant society Note that important argument made by author is t

> somehow turning the fact that Spartans had slaves that had no rights into an indictment of Spartmant society Note that important argument made by author is that even ancient authors - who were fine with slavery - still mentioned what was happening in Sparta as unusually cruel and extreme. And in other societies even slaves had some minimal legal or cultural protection. Spartan society celebrated murdering slaves. From second post in series: "The absence of any taboo – legal or religious – against the killing of helots marks the institution as uncommonly brutal not merely by Greek standards, but by world-historical standards." "Given how very little our sources care for the lives and experiences of any enslaved people, the unanimity of their testimony that life as a helot was awful is nothing short of astounding. This is an institution that shocks the conscience of ancient slaveholders." "Plutarch relates the saying that “in Sparta the free man is more free than anywhere else in the world, and the slave more a slave” (Plut. Lyc. 28.5). He can only be referring to the helots here. Indeed, Plutarch’s statement is telling – the helots were treated poorly by the standards of ancient chattel slavery, which is, I must stress, an incredibly low bar."

YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
I'm primarily commenting on the misconception about "Spartan" and "Spartiates" being different words in Greek. On the other hand, this is an exaggeration: >> "The absence of any taboo – legal or religious – against the killing of helots marks the institution as uncommonly brutal not merely by Greek standards, but by world-historical standards." World-historical standards should include, for example, the Aztecs, who sacrificed their prisonners of war and then slaughtered them and sold their meat at the market for families to buy and eat [1]. The Spartans were possibly more cruel to their slaves than all other Greek city-states at the time as a society, in the sense that they had murder rituals that others certainly didn't have. But in most places in the entire ancient world, the life of a slave, or her dignity, was not protected in any meaningful way and some, hopefully few, masters would have murdered and raped their slaves with impunity (though perhaps polite society would tut-tut, but not much more than if the master had murdered or raped his dog). For instance, the Spartans murdered their helots outright but the Athenians sent theirs to work at the silver mines at Laurion where they lived a short, miserable life and died en masse [2]. I am Athenian (obviously modern so) and I grew up with the ancient historians and more recent works so I'm used to thinking of the Spartans as the "bad guys" mainly because of the Peloponnesian War. But the author's criticism of their society is exaggerated and is not sufficiently placed in context of the era. In any case, as the author admits, most of the sources on Sparta were, indeed, Athenian and cannot be trusted to have been entirely objective. But even taking them at face value, sufficient context is not given. _____________ [1] See: Bernal Diaz del Castillo, Historia verdadera de la conquista de la Nueva España. I have a French translation not at hand, so I can't quote directly- my apologies. [2] During the tyranny of Peisistratos systematic exploitation of the mineral resources of Athens began. Shafts were driven down into the ground and galleries opened where slaves, chained, naked, and branded, worked the seams illuminated only by guttering oil lamps. An unrecorded number were children. It was a miserable, dangerous, and brief life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mines_of_Laurion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mines_of_Laurion

YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago

I'm primarily commenting on the misconception about "Spartan" and "Spartiates" being different words in Greek. On the other hand, this is an exaggeration: >> "The absence of any taboo – legal or religious – against the killing of helots marks the institution as uncommonly brutal not merely by Greek standards, but by world-historical standards." World-historical standards should include, for example, the Aztecs, who sacrificed their prisonners of war and then slaughtered them and sold their meat at the market for families to buy and eat [1]. The Spartans were possibly more cruel to their slaves than all other Greek city-states at the time as a society, in the sense that they had murder rituals that others certainly didn't have. But in most places in the entire ancient world, the life of a slave, or her dignity, was not protected in any meaningful way and some, hopefully few, masters would have murdered and raped their slaves with impunity (though perhaps polite society would tut-tut, but not much more than if the master had murdered or raped his dog). For instance, the Spartans murdered their helots outright but the Athenians sent theirs to work at the silver mines at Laurion where they lived a short, miserable life and died en masse [2]. I am Athenian (obviously modern so) and I grew up with the ancient historians and more recent works so I'm used to thinking of the Spartans as the "bad guys" mainly because of the Peloponnesian War. But the author's criticism of their society is exaggerated and is not sufficiently placed in context of the era. In any case, as the author admits, most of the sources on Sparta were, indeed, Athenian and cannot be trusted to have been entirely objective. But even taking them at face value, sufficient context is not given. _____________ [1] See: Bernal Diaz del Castillo, Historia verdadera de la conquista de la Nueva España. I have a French translation not at hand, so I can't quote directly- my apologies. [2] During the tyranny of Peisistratos systematic exploitation of the mineral resources of Athens began. Shafts were driven down into the ground and galleries opened where slaves, chained, naked, and branded, worked the seams illuminated only by guttering oil lamps. An unrecorded number were children. It was a miserable, dangerous, and brief life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mines_of_Laurion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mines_of_Laurion