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> Get rid of paper forms... moving those forms online ... made government services much more accessible Not everybody uses computers. Not everybody has interne

> Get rid of paper forms... moving those forms online ... made government services much more accessible Not everybody uses computers. Not everybody has internet access. Shouldn't paper forms still be available as a last resort? I'm okay with "online first" but not "online only".

thechao 6y ago
Paper forms are available ... where? In my county, the only place to get a paper form is by printing it out. A lot of people use the library to get access to a computer ... to print the form. I’m not saying “no” to paper, I’m just talking about the reality that having a computer in at least one part of the process is mandatory.
jeffgreco 6y ago
Boston has a number of ways to access online services, including free public wi-fi, libraries, and even a mobile City Hall that brings services directly to different neighborhoods: https://www.nationalcivicleague.org/promising-practices/boston-ma-city-hall-go/ https://www.nationalcivicleague.org/promising-practices/bost... More accessible than requiring someone to go to a City Hall basement!
caseysoftware 6y ago
100% spot on here. There are a significant number of people who use their phone as the primary or even sole method of internet access. And that's not just low income people but also young adults. When you start counting homeless people who primarily use the library (if open), you have another problem. I've worked in various "digital divide" issues for almost 10 years. Online first is okay but we can't wipe out the offline approaches without leaving large swathes of people without any feasible options. Innovate but make sure you're considering your constituents' needs.
TotempaaltJ 6y ago
I don't think anything about this article implies that there's no non-tech way to utilize these services after this change. Most governments have laws banning that anyway. A quick browse of boston.gov shows at least all forms I could immediately find have an in-person alternative listed on the website.
raverbashing 6y ago
Moving the forms online makes it easier even if the person using the system is still the office clerk. Sure, they'll have to fill the form themselves, but it is already online. So it is one (main) workflow regardless of who does it.
mrtksn 6y ago
> Shouldn't paper forms still be available as a last resort? No, not really. The edge cases are easily resolved by helping out those who cannot use the standard method. A friend, a random stranger or a clerk would gladly fill an online form when someone is having troubles. Upkeep of a parallel infrastructure is hard and expensive. If it’s not THAT rare it instantly becomes a service that is provided by a shop close to the place where the papers were supposed to be filled. I’ve seen that in Bulgaria where clerks would fill online or paper forms for you in exchange of a small fee and in Turkey there’s a bookstore close to official buildings that will help you with all kind of form. There used to be people with typewriters hassling around public offices that would fill forms for you too. Nowadays in Turkey the online government services are very good(you can do everything online, including everything from health services to subscription cancellations), so these seized to exist and if there’s some who cannot use the online stuff, a local shop or the clerks in a public office would help them out.
- cratermoon 6y ago
  psst: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26512281 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26512281
  - mrtksn 6y ago
    Interesting edge case that can be solved by booklet or a person with half an hour time explaining how these things work or simply help them out instead of upkeep of a paper processing infrastructure through institutions.
    - woodruffw 6y ago
      My parents, who have decidedly not been in prison for the last 30 years, can barely fill out most digital forms (especially ones on the Web) on their own. They both have professional degrees and have used computers since the 1980s. Assuming that someone who has likely never touched a computer before can operate at or above that level seems like a fast track towards ensuring that they remain marginalized and even further isolated from social services. That, in turn, has long term expenses that, I'd expect, dwarf the costs of a few hardcopies and a data-entry clerk.
CityOfThrowaway 6y ago
It is a significant reduction in scope and cost if you: 1. Make it online only 2. Let people use computers for free at city hall and libraries 3. Have folks around who can help if they get stuck
kgin 6y ago
Government can never be anything-only. About 20% of adults in the United States are considered functionally illiterate and 10% are almost entirely illiterate. There will always need to be the option to speak to a human who can assist you. https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp
prepend 6y ago
Kiosks at city hall and libraries help with this, but I think the simplest way to support this is to have each online form be printable (or have a form to request a paper version) and then an address to mail it with a message like “online forms usually processed in 1-2 days, mailing forms depends on postal service and may take 4-6 weeks” And just do data entry on the few paper forms that make it past this and don’t think about it. This is contingent on being able to have an alternate renderer that spits out pdf based on the form definition that should be dead simple. I work in an org with lots of forms. People were weird that they wouldn’t accept a screen that said “Prepend approved on 3/18 at 1055” and would do weird things like print out the screen and ask for signatures or say funny stuff like “the law requires a paper signature.” So the pdf killer equivalent added a “view form” button that just displayed the old form, filled in from the same record with “Digitally signed by prepend on 3/18 at 1055” in the signature box. Seems stupid but worked wonders. Some people would print that out and save it, but that doesn’t slow anyone down but the printer.

thechao 6y ago

Paper forms are available ... where? In my county, the only place to get a paper form is by printing it out. A lot of people use the library to get access to a computer ... to print the form. I’m not saying “no” to paper, I’m just talking about the reality that having a computer in at least one part of the process is mandatory.

jeffgreco 6y ago

Boston has a number of ways to access online services, including free public wi-fi, libraries, and even a mobile City Hall that brings services directly to different neighborhoods: https://www.nationalcivicleague.org/promising-practices/boston-ma-city-hall-go/ https://www.nationalcivicleague.org/promising-practices/bost... More accessible than requiring someone to go to a City Hall basement!

caseysoftware 6y ago

100% spot on here. There are a significant number of people who use their phone as the primary or even sole method of internet access. And that's not just low income people but also young adults. When you start counting homeless people who primarily use the library (if open), you have another problem. I've worked in various "digital divide" issues for almost 10 years. Online first is okay but we can't wipe out the offline approaches without leaving large swathes of people without any feasible options. Innovate but make sure you're considering your constituents' needs.

TotempaaltJ 6y ago

I don't think anything about this article implies that there's no non-tech way to utilize these services after this change. Most governments have laws banning that anyway. A quick browse of boston.gov shows at least all forms I could immediately find have an in-person alternative listed on the website.

raverbashing 6y ago

Moving the forms online makes it easier even if the person using the system is still the office clerk. Sure, they'll have to fill the form themselves, but it is already online. So it is one (main) workflow regardless of who does it.

mrtksn 6y ago

> Shouldn't paper forms still be available as a last resort? No, not really. The edge cases are easily resolved by helping out those who cannot use the standard method. A friend, a random stranger or a clerk would gladly fill an online form when someone is having troubles. Upkeep of a parallel infrastructure is hard and expensive. If it’s not THAT rare it instantly becomes a service that is provided by a shop close to the place where the papers were supposed to be filled. I’ve seen that in Bulgaria where clerks would fill online or paper forms for you in exchange of a small fee and in Turkey there’s a bookstore close to official buildings that will help you with all kind of form. There used to be people with typewriters hassling around public offices that would fill forms for you too. Nowadays in Turkey the online government services are very good(you can do everything online, including everything from health services to subscription cancellations), so these seized to exist and if there’s some who cannot use the online stuff, a local shop or the clerks in a public office would help them out.

cratermoon 6y ago
psst: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26512281 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26512281
- mrtksn 6y ago
  Interesting edge case that can be solved by booklet or a person with half an hour time explaining how these things work or simply help them out instead of upkeep of a paper processing infrastructure through institutions.
  - woodruffw 6y ago
    My parents, who have decidedly not been in prison for the last 30 years, can barely fill out most digital forms (especially ones on the Web) on their own. They both have professional degrees and have used computers since the 1980s. Assuming that someone who has likely never touched a computer before can operate at or above that level seems like a fast track towards ensuring that they remain marginalized and even further isolated from social services. That, in turn, has long term expenses that, I'd expect, dwarf the costs of a few hardcopies and a data-entry clerk.

CityOfThrowaway 6y ago

It is a significant reduction in scope and cost if you: 1. Make it online only 2. Let people use computers for free at city hall and libraries 3. Have folks around who can help if they get stuck

kgin 6y ago

Government can never be anything-only. About 20% of adults in the United States are considered functionally illiterate and 10% are almost entirely illiterate. There will always need to be the option to speak to a human who can assist you. https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp

prepend 6y ago

Kiosks at city hall and libraries help with this, but I think the simplest way to support this is to have each online form be printable (or have a form to request a paper version) and then an address to mail it with a message like “online forms usually processed in 1-2 days, mailing forms depends on postal service and may take 4-6 weeks” And just do data entry on the few paper forms that make it past this and don’t think about it. This is contingent on being able to have an alternate renderer that spits out pdf based on the form definition that should be dead simple. I work in an org with lots of forms. People were weird that they wouldn’t accept a screen that said “Prepend approved on 3/18 at 1055” and would do weird things like print out the screen and ask for signatures or say funny stuff like “the law requires a paper signature.” So the pdf killer equivalent added a “view form” button that just displayed the old form, filled in from the same record with “Digitally signed by prepend on 3/18 at 1055” in the signature box. Seems stupid but worked wonders. Some people would print that out and save it, but that doesn’t slow anyone down but the printer.