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Somewhat related, I got a new computer this week, and had to boot into windows so I could partition the HD to install linux. This was the first time in 15 years

Somewhat related, I got a new computer this week, and had to boot into windows so I could partition the HD to install linux. This was the first time in 15 years I have booted into a brand new "consumer" windows install (it was windows 10 pro). The "setup" was basically just 10 minutes of them asking in different ways if they could collect my personal data, track my location, send back telemetry etc. Office 365 is the same. I find some new thing every day that I have to opt out of to prevent them stealing my and my business data. Its like they have given up on trying to improve their products (which are basically stable) and shifted into finding more ways to steal data. As much as I dislike google for this, I realize I'm the product there, with Microsoft I thought I was paying to get business tools, not to be spied on. (To be fair, I then installed ubuntu which also wanted to send my data back to canonical) Another example, I bought a car recently that defaults to stealing my personal information and sending it to the manufacturer. I had to call, and provide more information to them, to opt out (and I can only assume they are still stealing information they have deemed critical in some way) Anyway, I'm reminded of all of this because I think the obfuscated cookie consents are just one facet of how hostile consumer tech has become to users. Aided by complex and ambiguous regulations, companies are able to stay within the letter of the law while making it impossible to just be left alone with your purchase and not be tracked and marketed to. If there is a regulatory solution, it has to focus on clarity and spirit, not on just more rules. I'm not aware of an example of something like this working elsewhere. One idea is a heavy tax on advertising. I've argued before that there is a lot in common between environmental pollution and the effects of advertising on the public value of the internet, and I would say this extends to tech generally. Charge a 25-40% tax on ad revenue, and make it less economic for companies to pollute.

tester34 6y ago
>The "setup" was basically just 10 minutes of them asking in different 10minutes for something like 5 questions? >and shifted into finding more ways to steal data if they wanted to steal your data, then they'd ask you about it?
- dylan604 6y ago
  It easily could take 10 minutes to actually read/decipher the word games being played to confuse the reader into accepting the preferred option the vendor wants. Just like it only takes seconds to accept the ToS/EULA because nobody reads them. If people did actually read them, it would take hours/days to do a "simple" install.
  - tester34 6y ago
    I don't remember the wording being tricky or something along those lines I don't have screenshoot of those newest windows, but I found one of older quetsions Diagnostic data - send all basic diagnostic data along with info about websites you browse and how you use apps and features plus additional info about device and its health and enhanced error reporting You could chose FULL or probably Minimal(?)
    - dylan604 6y ago
      >plus additional info about device What is 'device'? In moder parlance, device is a phone/tablet type of something. I've personally never heard of a computer being refered to as a device. What is 'enhanced error reporting'? What is 'basic'? My natural instinct would be to have clicked no to everything, but just taking that approach screws you when it is worded like some of the options in the TFA 'Disable all basic diagnostic blah blah'. If you quickly select no for everything, then you just said no to disabling, thereby granting permission to do what you thought you were just disabling. These are the things to be looking out for.
- zorrolovsky 6y ago
  > if they wanted to steal your data, then they'd ask you about it? Because if they don't meet a bare minimum of decency and regulatory requirements, they will be fined a substantial % of their revenue. They ask questions because if they didn't they wouldn't have a defense in court.
Taylor_OD 6y ago
Yup. It's so difficult to run Windows without accidentally agreeing to let them use your data however they'd like. They make it time consuming to opt out as well. Very frustrating at times.
- deskelleher 6y ago
  ShutUp10 is a great tool for quickly viewing and disabling all Windows 10 telemetry: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
  - zorrolovsky 6y ago
    Great advice and thanks for sharing. However, the risk of these programs is that they don't last forever. Microsoft can disable what they do, find alternative ways of stealing data, etc.
thepete2 6y ago
The money Microsoft gets from spying on paying users is sometimes called "surveillance dividend". Even if you pay for something, the company can make more money if they also spy on you.
- matheusmoreira 6y ago
  Yeah its just like advertising. Not doing it means leaving money on the table...
jimmaswell 6y ago
Interesting how the same crowd that insisted copying a video game isn't stealing now frames collecting data as stealing.
- annoyingnoob 6y ago
  Copying a game is a one-time event, and everyone gets the exact same code/product. When collecting usage data, the data is different each time you collect it, and its not a one-time event, it happens over and over. I'm not condoning copying games, just saying its not a fair comparison to gathering your usage data.
  - dylan604 6y ago
    In legal terms stealing != stealing. There is larceny, petty larceny, grand larceny. One type gets you a slap on the wrist (stealing one's personal data for monetary gain). Another gets you a ridiculous monetary fine (downloading a song/game from torrents). It's out of balance like the murderer going free while the kid with minor amounts of weed going to jail.
    - jimmaswell 6y ago
      I find it absurd to frame making an observation (this person buys a lot of cereal from my store, so I'll tell him about a new brand of cereal that came in he might like) as stealing their data. How do you justify that? How has this cereal buying customer been robbed?
      - iujjkfjdkkdkf 6y ago
        Harvesting peoples behavioral or other data is depriving them of privacy. There is lots of precedent for why privacy is important. So to be specific, the data collection is "stealing" privacy. And with respect to the gp comment, this is actually different than copyright infringement, where the infringer is not depriving the copyright holder of anything, except potentially a business model based on withholding information. There is obviously a lively debate about the appropriate reach of copyright law, but imo at least, copyrights are more abstract that the privacy rights that are being infringed through surreptitious data collection
aasasd 6y ago
> boot into windows so I could partition the HD to install linux There's your mistake. Partitioning works just fine from the installer, or if the installer provides any live environment on the second virtual console, with gdisk or parted.
blackearl 6y ago
It's definitely not 10 minutes. You can tab+spacebar toggle everything to off in about 30 seconds
- zorrolovsky 6y ago
  Your example is valid for a user familiar with the installation process. OP mentioned is a new user. Also, even if you toggle "everything off" there is stolen data going through which you don't even have an option to disable.

tester34 6y ago

>The "setup" was basically just 10 minutes of them asking in different 10minutes for something like 5 questions? >and shifted into finding more ways to steal data if they wanted to steal your data, then they'd ask you about it?

dylan604 6y ago
It easily could take 10 minutes to actually read/decipher the word games being played to confuse the reader into accepting the preferred option the vendor wants. Just like it only takes seconds to accept the ToS/EULA because nobody reads them. If people did actually read them, it would take hours/days to do a "simple" install.
- tester34 6y ago
  I don't remember the wording being tricky or something along those lines I don't have screenshoot of those newest windows, but I found one of older quetsions Diagnostic data - send all basic diagnostic data along with info about websites you browse and how you use apps and features plus additional info about device and its health and enhanced error reporting You could chose FULL or probably Minimal(?)
  - dylan604 6y ago
    >plus additional info about device What is 'device'? In moder parlance, device is a phone/tablet type of something. I've personally never heard of a computer being refered to as a device. What is 'enhanced error reporting'? What is 'basic'? My natural instinct would be to have clicked no to everything, but just taking that approach screws you when it is worded like some of the options in the TFA 'Disable all basic diagnostic blah blah'. If you quickly select no for everything, then you just said no to disabling, thereby granting permission to do what you thought you were just disabling. These are the things to be looking out for.
zorrolovsky 6y ago
> if they wanted to steal your data, then they'd ask you about it? Because if they don't meet a bare minimum of decency and regulatory requirements, they will be fined a substantial % of their revenue. They ask questions because if they didn't they wouldn't have a defense in court.

Taylor_OD 6y ago

Yup. It's so difficult to run Windows without accidentally agreeing to let them use your data however they'd like. They make it time consuming to opt out as well. Very frustrating at times.

deskelleher 6y ago
ShutUp10 is a great tool for quickly viewing and disabling all Windows 10 telemetry: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
- zorrolovsky 6y ago
  Great advice and thanks for sharing. However, the risk of these programs is that they don't last forever. Microsoft can disable what they do, find alternative ways of stealing data, etc.

thepete2 6y ago

The money Microsoft gets from spying on paying users is sometimes called "surveillance dividend". Even if you pay for something, the company can make more money if they also spy on you.

matheusmoreira 6y ago
Yeah its just like advertising. Not doing it means leaving money on the table...

jimmaswell 6y ago

Interesting how the same crowd that insisted copying a video game isn't stealing now frames collecting data as stealing.

annoyingnoob 6y ago
Copying a game is a one-time event, and everyone gets the exact same code/product. When collecting usage data, the data is different each time you collect it, and its not a one-time event, it happens over and over. I'm not condoning copying games, just saying its not a fair comparison to gathering your usage data.
- dylan604 6y ago
  In legal terms stealing != stealing. There is larceny, petty larceny, grand larceny. One type gets you a slap on the wrist (stealing one's personal data for monetary gain). Another gets you a ridiculous monetary fine (downloading a song/game from torrents). It's out of balance like the murderer going free while the kid with minor amounts of weed going to jail.
  - jimmaswell 6y ago
    I find it absurd to frame making an observation (this person buys a lot of cereal from my store, so I'll tell him about a new brand of cereal that came in he might like) as stealing their data. How do you justify that? How has this cereal buying customer been robbed?
    - iujjkfjdkkdkf 6y ago
      Harvesting peoples behavioral or other data is depriving them of privacy. There is lots of precedent for why privacy is important. So to be specific, the data collection is "stealing" privacy. And with respect to the gp comment, this is actually different than copyright infringement, where the infringer is not depriving the copyright holder of anything, except potentially a business model based on withholding information. There is obviously a lively debate about the appropriate reach of copyright law, but imo at least, copyrights are more abstract that the privacy rights that are being infringed through surreptitious data collection

aasasd 6y ago

> boot into windows so I could partition the HD to install linux There's your mistake. Partitioning works just fine from the installer, or if the installer provides any live environment on the second virtual console, with gdisk or parted.

blackearl 6y ago

It's definitely not 10 minutes. You can tab+spacebar toggle everything to off in about 30 seconds

zorrolovsky 6y ago
Your example is valid for a user familiar with the installation process. OP mentioned is a new user. Also, even if you toggle "everything off" there is stolen data going through which you don't even have an option to disable.