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That somehow rapid-release is antithetical to the enterprise is a very archaic view of enterprise computing. Enterprises use cloud HR software, Office suites (M

That somehow rapid-release is antithetical to the enterprise is a very archaic view of enterprise computing. Enterprises use cloud HR software, Office suites (MS365 and Google Workspace), Salesforce, etc all the time and those update on a fairly frequent basis. Also, given the need to patch promptly, most forward-looking enterprises have much more responsive systems in place -- including investments in good CI/CD systems to deliver even internal software faster. So they're quite comfortable with the "new normal" of the software industry. The most used enterprise OS, Windows, is rapid release too -- every 6 months, coincidentally! But there's a LTSB branch you can use. Java releases every 6 months too, and that hasn't halted enterprise adoption. Similarly with C#, not every team jumps to the latest language level just because it was released. Teams should pick language updates at a speed that suits them -- but hopefully not so slowly that moving to newer releases becomes difficult. Similarly with Go. Why should it be any different with Rust? To the extent that enterprises are using the latter two in massive numbers. The key thing is, as others have noted, is stability and a lack of breaking changes.

nobleach 6y ago
>with C#, not every team jumps to the latest language level just because it was released. Exactly when it comes to Java, even though there is now a 6 month release cadence, take a survey of which version most are using. Certainly every time I bring this up, someone pops up and says, "I'm using 11" or "10". But the vast majority of "enterprises" are at max, Java 8. And they'll remain on 8 until something forces them off of it. Enterprises by nature move at a glacial pace. So their reason for adopting Java is not because it's "moving fast".
- signal11 6y ago
  > So their reason for adopting Java is not because it's "moving fast". I was replying to the parent poster, who said that moving fast is a roadblock to enterprise adoption. Whether enterprises adopt Java because it's moving fast is another question altogether. Certainly no one is deserting Java because of the decision to boost its release cadence. > Enterprises by nature move at a glacial pace I think it depends on the enterprise.[1] Cyber-Security has changed the game for many enterprises very fundamentally. Well-run enterprises now patch more promptly than many consumers -- at least, certainly the consumers who don't auto-update. Well, unless they want a Maersk-like incident[2], or be infected by ransomware. Maersk's incident cost it $200M if you believe Forbes. About slow JVM upgrades, a lot of that is a cost/benefit calculation or poor technical leadership. CIOs and COOs (or audit, for that matter) have no interest in which Java version you use. The only questions are: Is it secure? Does it make commercial sense? For actively developed software, staying on a recent-ish Java isn't a problem (many good enterprises have adopted Devops in some shape and form -- just add a task to your CI server to test on the latest JRE) once your engineering team has crossed the Java 8-to-11 hump. If you do that, you get to not pay Oracle $$$ per desktop/server every year (or you could use Corretto etc, but most enterprises will choose to pay Oracle). Or you could simply upgrade for the productivity & JVM improvements. Legacy products not in active development are another matter, but even there -- the cost of not getting security updates is too high nowadays, so you have to spend money to secure it -- and legacy software has other costs too[3]. So unless you're a developer working on a legacy app, or an app who's design is so poor that it's locked into Java 8, there's no reason you couldn't be on Java 11 soon and get on the rapid cadence train yourself thereafter. It's really about how nimble your team is. Of course, you could be unfortunate enough to work in an enterprise that doesn't take cyber-security seriously, in which case YOLO. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25873325 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25873325 [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/leemathews/2017/08/16/notpetya-ransomware-attack-cost-shipping-giant-maersk-over-200-million/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/leemathews/2017/08/16/notpetya-... [3] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/02/citibank-just-got-a-500-million-lesson-in-the-importance-of-ui-design/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/02/citibank-just-go...
- treis 6y ago
  I've come to dislike versioning stuff more and more. It's an invitation for people to get stuck on a version. And as time goes on it becomes harder to upgrade to the latest version so the trap continues to tighten. Enterprisey stuff should choose things that prioritize backwards compatibility and well tested changes. Settling on a LTS version seems attractive but it's a trap and should be avoided.
api 6y ago
Cloud hosted SaaS may release a lot faster but it also means you are not on the hook for supporting it.

nobleach 6y ago

>with C#, not every team jumps to the latest language level just because it was released. Exactly when it comes to Java, even though there is now a 6 month release cadence, take a survey of which version most are using. Certainly every time I bring this up, someone pops up and says, "I'm using 11" or "10". But the vast majority of "enterprises" are at max, Java 8. And they'll remain on 8 until something forces them off of it. Enterprises by nature move at a glacial pace. So their reason for adopting Java is not because it's "moving fast".

signal11 6y ago
> So their reason for adopting Java is not because it's "moving fast". I was replying to the parent poster, who said that moving fast is a roadblock to enterprise adoption. Whether enterprises adopt Java because it's moving fast is another question altogether. Certainly no one is deserting Java because of the decision to boost its release cadence. > Enterprises by nature move at a glacial pace I think it depends on the enterprise.[1] Cyber-Security has changed the game for many enterprises very fundamentally. Well-run enterprises now patch more promptly than many consumers -- at least, certainly the consumers who don't auto-update. Well, unless they want a Maersk-like incident[2], or be infected by ransomware. Maersk's incident cost it $200M if you believe Forbes. About slow JVM upgrades, a lot of that is a cost/benefit calculation or poor technical leadership. CIOs and COOs (or audit, for that matter) have no interest in which Java version you use. The only questions are: Is it secure? Does it make commercial sense? For actively developed software, staying on a recent-ish Java isn't a problem (many good enterprises have adopted Devops in some shape and form -- just add a task to your CI server to test on the latest JRE) once your engineering team has crossed the Java 8-to-11 hump. If you do that, you get to not pay Oracle $$$ per desktop/server every year (or you could use Corretto etc, but most enterprises will choose to pay Oracle). Or you could simply upgrade for the productivity & JVM improvements. Legacy products not in active development are another matter, but even there -- the cost of not getting security updates is too high nowadays, so you have to spend money to secure it -- and legacy software has other costs too[3]. So unless you're a developer working on a legacy app, or an app who's design is so poor that it's locked into Java 8, there's no reason you couldn't be on Java 11 soon and get on the rapid cadence train yourself thereafter. It's really about how nimble your team is. Of course, you could be unfortunate enough to work in an enterprise that doesn't take cyber-security seriously, in which case YOLO. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25873325 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25873325 [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/leemathews/2017/08/16/notpetya-ransomware-attack-cost-shipping-giant-maersk-over-200-million/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/leemathews/2017/08/16/notpetya-... [3] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/02/citibank-just-got-a-500-million-lesson-in-the-importance-of-ui-design/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/02/citibank-just-go...
treis 6y ago
I've come to dislike versioning stuff more and more. It's an invitation for people to get stuck on a version. And as time goes on it becomes harder to upgrade to the latest version so the trap continues to tighten. Enterprisey stuff should choose things that prioritize backwards compatibility and well tested changes. Settling on a LTS version seems attractive but it's a trap and should be avoided.

api 6y ago

Cloud hosted SaaS may release a lot faster but it also means you are not on the hook for supporting it.