8 ms·

The true villain of Disney’s Frozen (2019)

154 points by xivzgrev 6y ago

wincy 6y ago
A shame it’s down, because the article mostly points out how strange and off Frozen is as a movie compared to Disney’s more archetypical offerings of fairie tells and princesses that they’re known for. It has a tone where it’s trying to make sense of what’s actually a pretty confusing and bad plot line.
- veddox 6y ago
  Yes, it's an interesting take, but I'm afraid that plot is beyond redemption :D Frozen is a great movie for its characters, its world animation, and of course its songs. But the betrayal at the end just makes zero sense (and might arguably rank as the greatest Disney plot fail of all times?). I actually thought Frozen 2 was a much better movie - one of the rare cases of a sequel being better. Same characters, same animation, same quality songs; but an unusual plotline with well-executed twists and a much greater "depth" to it than normal Disney movies.
  - guidedlight 6y ago
    My understanding is that Disney struggled for a movie adaptation of The Snow Queen for decades, and the breakthrough was having two sisters as the protagonists one who would be the Snow Queen that fled into hiding when her powers were revealed. It seems that fairly strong opening plot was enough to convince Disney execs to proceed and the writers filled in the blanks.
    - bombcar 6y ago
      Frozen makes a lot more sense if you consider the hero AND the villain to both be Elsa. The apparent “villains” in the movie are just plot advancement tools and don’t bear looking too deep at.
      - staticman2 6y ago
        The movie would work pretty well if Hans was well intentioned and just felt he just had to kill Elsa in the end to save everybody. I think there was an interview where the creators said the real villain is fear- but that's not really the movie they made. They got close to making that movie but blew it with Hans's mustache twirling villain revelation scene.
  - statstutor 6y ago
    > But the betrayal at the end just makes zero sense It's more surprising than we expect from Disney: there's no 'villain song' explaining the villain's private intent. I liked it that way. It felt real to me. I felt that I had been tricked, even after the naivety of the love/relationship was heavily foreshadowed. (I felt that) we experience the scene more exactly as Anna does.
    - jfengel 6y ago
      The song in the position of the Villain Song is "Let It Go". Which is quite remarkable. The ways that Frozen breaks the expected beats make it a lot of fun -- the "twist" is genuinely unexpected because the story isn't following the tropes. But those tropes exist for a reason, and Frozen feels a little disjointed for failing to follow them. You feel tricked because you were tricked. And yet it works, if for no other reason than the way a magic trick is fun. It has strong performances, great animation, and a positive message about the power of sisterhood.
    - ip26 6y ago
      A good twist/betrayal certainly requires it catch you by surprise, but relatable villains can add a lot to a story.
  - cooperadymas 6y ago
    What doesn't make sense about it? The only thing that makes it a surprising twist is that it's a Disney movie where we expect our villains to wear cloaks and fur coats and twirl their mustaches and explain their motivations in Act 1. Otherwise the seeds are all there. He's an ambitious thirteenth son of a king, literally ignored by his brothers and likely neglected by his own parents. He has no future in his own land. He says outright that he's "been searching [his] whole life to find [his] own place." After just one night he's trying to marry the naive young princess desperate for love (which was, btw, already established). He jumps at an opportunity to take charge and win the hearts of the people when Anna rides off. If this were anything but a Disney movie, by that point everyone would be asking themselves what he's really up to.
    - atomicnumber3 6y ago
      This is always my take on Hans. If anything, this is Disney subverting their own trope of "instant true love". They literally make fun of it for the entire movie. I think every single major character has either a serious (Elsa) or flabbergasted (Sven [sic]) response and openly and directly derides her for it.
      - veddox 6y ago
        > If anything, this is Disney subverting their own trope of "instant true love". Oh, absolutely. And that's one of the plot's redeeming features in my eyes. But it's a long stretch to get from the lovesick princeling to the ruthless, sinister usurper. At the start of the movie, Hans is naive and/or willing to capitalise on Anna's naiveté, but there is no indication whatsoever that he is actively evil. And as the OP showed, there would have been ample opportunities for the scriptwriter to foreshadow any such negative side to his character; and there would have been much better opportunities for Hans to carry out his evil plans.
        anotherman554 6y ago
        Hans is simultaneously trying to destroy the older sister, woo the younger sister, while also making the people think he's a good person who should lead them. That's a very tough line to walk on so I don't think he had better opportunities.
  - phamilton 6y ago
    My beef with Frozen 2 is it basically is homeopathy as a fairy tale. And homeopathy bothers me.
robocat 6y ago
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frereubu 6y ago
Seems to be down. Wayback machine link: https://web.archive.org/web/20201031003357/https://pixelatedgeek.com/2019/12/the-secret-villains-of-the-original-frozen-movie/ https://web.archive.org/web/20201031003357/https://pixelated...
huffmsa 6y ago
That the trolls didn't reveal the past to Anna when she visited them always strikes me as odd. They're definitely playing for their own interests.
- huffmsa 6y ago
  And for that matter, why didn't Kristoff ever tell her that he'd seen her as a child and that she'd gone to the trolls before.
  - kagaw 6y ago
    Kristoff is brainwashed. Remember when he saw the trolls and the royal family? A troll show up beside Kristoff and said "Cuties! I'm gonna keep you!" (That's the weirdest line, I've ever heard in that movie). After that, the troll do its magic brainwash to Kristoff. The trolls motive is to keep their power in secret. And Kristoff is just a kid, it is possible that his father is one of the iceman(the opening scene cutting ice).
    - huffmsa 6y ago
      I did think it was weird that they abruptly adopted him. He didn't seem like an orphan.
      - atomicnumber3 6y ago
        In Disney movies, that's easily remedied.
- Twirrim 6y ago
  I've had the trolls pegged as evil since the first viewing for one specific reason: "Only an act of true love can thaw a frozen heart". That was what sent Anna off to find Hans, but also the key for Elsa. Love is at the heart of her control of her powers, not fear. The trolls knew, but instead of teaching her this and helping her learn how to control her powers, they taught her to fear them.
robotbikes 6y ago
Having listened to the b-side of the Frozen soundtrack a few too many times where the original composers talk about earlier versions of the plot that were changed. Such as increased conflict between Anna & Elsa where Anna wanted Elsa to go back to suppressing her powers and a kid's pageant about a curse of ever lasting winter and sword sacrifice let me just say that I think the original plot would have been more interesting. In addition the original Elsa sketches were much more frightening. So I think Elsa is actually the true villain grappling with her powers and alienation from society and the Hans thing is just a bad plot point.
- bombcar 6y ago
  Exactly - it’s an Elsa story and the villains are just “triggers” in Elsa’s story. She’s a classic “redeemed villain” arc - just with the story focusing on her.
- wodenokoto 6y ago
  Well, it’s very loosely based on the Hans Christian Anderson story about an evil Ice Queen, so it makes sense that the early iterations had a fairly sinister Elsa. According to Wikipedia: > The 2013 Walt Disney Animation Studios film Frozen was inspired by "The Snow Queen", and closely followed the original Andersen story early in the film's development. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snow_Queen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snow_Queen
  - emilecantin 6y ago
    Fun fact: They're both named "La Reine des Neiges" in French. Imagine our confusion when we got the wrong one (a Russian studio made a pretty good movie of Anderson's story: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snow_Queen_(2012_film) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snow_Queen_(2012_film))
    - missblit 6y ago
      A Soviet Union studio made a pretty good movie of Anderson's story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snow_Queen_(1957_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snow_Queen_(1957_film)
oceanghost 6y ago
I've seen this movie 500 times at least (young daughters/nieces). The first mistake made here is, Disney plots are their own genre, and have been for many years. This plot does break some Disney tropes, but if you look closely, all the beats are there still. As a father and uncle, I appreciate this movie that is less male-centric. There is a lot of subtly in certain places-- the song between Anna and Hans, "Love is an Open Door" -- while the trap set is abhorrent-- if you understand the lyrics, these characters are not talking about "love", they are talking about second order effects of running from their (psychological) problems. In the song, nobody says the only thing that someone should say, "I love you because you are you." Rather, the song is purposefully shallow, "This is how you make me feel, about me." Moving on... The Trolls are equivalent to the "prophecy" trope we see in so much bad entertainment nowadays. They essentially lay out the entire movie for you. This is frighteningly common but one could argue in a movie for children it might be good to let them know whats going on. The Trolls just tell us the prophecy in an amusing manner, instead of being some boring scroll that was found or exposition that was told to us. They get a silly musical number, and honestly why are you watching a Disney movie if you didn't want a silly musical number by cute anthropomorphic, marketable things? The Trolls advice is indeed baffling... but the motivation to hide Elsa's powers are very well established-- magic is feared and punishable by death, and its even playful use directly harmed Anna. You could probably overlay real world problem here as a metaphor... The fact that the article misses this obvious point makes me wonder about the authenticity of the authors intent at all. The Trolls are a plot device in a movie that, was overall pretty-ok. They're not evil, they're just an escalator that moves the plot along. I like that the movie deviated slightly from Disney-standard plots. I don't want my kiddo to think a man needs to save her... we have a rule around here, "She can have as many Barbies as chemistry sets." Overall, it was a decent film. Fantastic movie, fantastic animation, and an "ok" plot. :-) Frozen 2 was more... wonderful and silly. I liked the film, the set piece at the denouement was wonderful, but we have to explore that Anna is obviously the spirit of fire, which wasn't broached.
- lupire 6y ago
  > , "She can have as many Barbies as chemistry sets." Why? A chemistry set has 50 pieces. A barbie is 1.
Toutouxc 6y ago
This is canon to me from now on. The original story is such a disappointment. It's like they ran out of funding after two thirds of the movie.
naringas 6y ago
What about the role of the parents? (the king and queen?) IMO they handle Elsa's powers in the worst way possible. The trolls sublty hint at what not to do: "fear is the worse you can do"; then they do exactly that. She's taught to deny and hide everything by her parents. So when they tragically die, she just keeps on the same self-repression path until it gets real bad.
- Marazan 6y ago
  Yes, The Trolls give some advice that the King and Queen completely mis-interpret. They think "Control her powers" means "Lock powers away"
- cooperadymas 6y ago
  It's clear that they don't know how to handle her powers and are doing the best they can, albeit yes, it was probably the worst way to handle it. They were scared that someone would get hurt by her powers (check) and that, if discovered, she would be deemed a monster (check). Furthermore, the troll king's advice was that Anna could not know about her powers or the damage from being struck in the head would return. So their only choice was to isolate the two sisters from one another. There was nothing intentionally villainous with the parents.
- smileysteve 6y ago
  This how it should have ended from 2014. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dach1nPbsY8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dach1nPbsY8
TulliusCicero 6y ago
> There is a glaring problem with his plan. His plan involves gaining power to the throne by marrying and murdering the rightful heir. However, monarchies determine who rule based on blood relatives. On the Norwegian royal court website family tree, the only people eligible for the crown were direct descendants. If both sisters die, then the heir to the throne is most likely a distant cousin way before Prince Hans could claim the throne. This person is overthinking this Disney movie more than a little bit.
- staticman2 6y ago
  They can't possibly believe their argument right, it's just a joke? Arendelle isn't a real kingdom. You can't cite the real world except as a joke.
- ginko 6y ago
  Norway also didn't exist as an independent kingdom until 1905 (instead being ruled by the king of Sweden) so using the current rules of succession don't make much sense. Actually if the royal family in one of the Scandinavian countries died out, it would be more than likely a king or prince from another Scandinavian country that's next in line for succession (like Prince Carl of Denmark became the Norwegian king Haakon VII in 1905), so pretty much what Hans was planning.
  - chha 6y ago
    Although a Norwegian, I had to look this up. The line of succession in Norway is limited to the descendants of the living king, so as a result the list is fairly short with just 7 eligible candidates. If all those were to die, the Norwegian parliament would (in theory) select a new king or queen. In practice though, I suspect that we'd simply end the monarchy. This is unlike other monarchies where the line of succession is a bit larger. According to Wikipedia, the line of succession in the UK has more than 5000 entries. [1] [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_the_British_throne#Current_line_of_succession https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_the_British_thro...
  - Cynox 6y ago
staticman2 6y ago
I read an interview where the screenwriter said Hans is a sociopath who mirrors people, and the screenwriter said mirroring people's body language is something she does herself in real life! I think the article is "trolling".
temporallobe 6y ago
Like other middle-aged men with young daughters, I have seen this movie probably 50 times now. It’s a great movie with a touching story and a clever plot, but the analysis is wrong and convoluted. The trolls were a plot device, plain and simple. Assigning further meaning to their role is pure speculation.
- watwut 6y ago
  Plus, I think that their wrong advice simply represented "common sense" wrong advice all of us get from various people in the course of our lives. It is much more simple and plausible explanation, "they were wrong" then trying to make ma big manipulation.
- foxhop 6y ago
  I just read the article to my 4 year ar old daughter and asked her, so what do you think, this article says the trolls are bad. "Do you think they were bad or good?" "well in the movie they were good, they only helped people and played" I think the trolls were bad and I felt hans significant character shift is better explained by troll magic than bad story telling. Fun read though!
  - cpuguy83 6y ago
    I don't know... there are parts where it seems like Olaf was edited in after the fact... so don't discount bad storytelling :)
    - cogman10 6y ago
      Olaf was added because they got Josh Gad and needed a funny man role. Gad would have just finished up with BoM when they started doing voice recordings for frozen. Knowing nothing about the background, I'd bet gad was a pretty late addition to the cast. Knowing Disney, they are trying to make Gad the new Robin Williams. If you look for the advertising around Frozen there is a TON of focus on Olaf even though his role is really minor in the first movie. Same thing happened with Aladdin and the Genie.
  - 6y ago
jansan 6y ago
Startup idea: Create a winter cloud that floats above your head in summer to keep you cool (or cold, or even frozen). Would be a blat to have one of these at a beach resort.
sbuttgereit 6y ago
A meta comment. When I read this article, I don't learn anything at all about Frozen. I do get some insight about how we can, or even like, to rationalize ideas (vs. reasoning about them). In this context it's harmless and maybe entertaining. Where rationalizing becomes a problem is when you rationalize what is real; to many rationalizing is in appearance not so far from reasoning that it's easy to confuse the two if you take too much for granted or assume too much trust in a speaker. Not always easy for even the most rational amongst us to differentiate. Failing to be conscious of this one fact, in my opinion, leads to many bad outcomes like believing in conspiracies, ignoring uncomfortable challenges to our beliefs, and otherwise pollutes the marketplace of ideas. I guess the points of the comment are to urge you to be always mindful of the distinction between rationalizing and reasoning and to always vigilant to the point of self-examination when the distinction may really matter.
smileysteve 6y ago
How did this get published in 2019 and shared in 2021? This analysis was done by "How It Should Have Ended" in 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dach1nPbsY8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dach1nPbsY8
dhosek 6y ago
Some of the comments here are unintentionally hilarious. The original article is a pretty good attempt at creating an alternate interpretation of the story (akin to, say, Grand Unified Pixar or Darth Jar-Jar). This is its own genre and some such reinterpretations are more successful than others and all will likely fall short insofar as they attempt to overlay an interpretation on a story that was not intended by the authors and necessarily are running contrary to authorial intent, with narratives that are richer in content and ambiguity being the most successful in allowing for this sort of reinterpretation (and that's leaving out intentionally ambiguous narratives like Total Recall).
mpettitt 6y ago
Another alternative look at the Frozen story is in Disney's Twisted Tales version ( https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Conceal,_Don%27t_Feel_(A_Twisted_Tale) https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Conceal,_Don%27t_Feel_(A_Twis... ) which shows an alternative way that the parents could have dealt with the situation. Still not ideal, but better that the canon version in terms of the mental impacts on various characters!
mac01021 6y ago
This is interesting, but a little weak. It reminds me of this other,10-year-old post about Tom Bombadil from the Lord of the Rings: https://km-515.livejournal.com/1042.html https://km-515.livejournal.com/1042.html
mcphage 6y ago
The author makes some interesting points, and I like the idea of "a Disney song never lies to the audience". But I don't agree with their statement here: > “Love is an Open Door” is a love ballad between Anna and Hans where they reveal their love and romantic chemistry for one another. This musical number exists as a genuine love song that is never re-contextualized later to fit an alternate meaning. Hans reveals that he wants to fit in and find his place, and that Anna is what gives him purpose. There are no hints or double meanings to grab onto in the lyrics. If these songs reveal the true intentions of these characters, all of Hans’ feelings are genuine. Specifically "no hints or double meanings to grab onto in the lyrics". This is one of the exchanges in the song: Hans: "I mean it's crazy" Anna: "What?" Hans: "We finish each other's--" Anna: "Sandwiches!" Hans: "That's what I was gonna say!" My question is, was Hans telling the truth here? Was he actually going to say "sandwiches?" Or was he lobbing a softball for her to finish, and she said something unexpected, and he pretended that was what he wanted to say? Because it really doesn't feel genuine on his part. I think he wanted her to say "sentences" because of course that's how you finish that sentence. He's trying to build rapport, and rather than responding genuinely to what she said, he lied about it. So no, I don't think "Love is an Open Door" is a love ballad. I think it's Hans trying to manipulate Anna's feelings. It's him leaning into what Anna was looking for, which was to be seen and accepted instead of ignored and pushed away.
- Malician 6y ago
  I'm honestly baffled that anyone sees this any other way. It didn't even occur to me as a possibility. The whole betrayal was not just telegraphed, it was directly shown in every aspect of how Hans interacted with Anna.
- falcor84 6y ago
  Agreed. And I think the lines "But with you ... I found my place" are also quite double-meant.
  - mcphage 6y ago
    Even the song title works well in that way—"Love is an Open Door" to Anna means "I will finally be seen and accepted", whereas for Hans it means "Anna's love will let me walk in and do whatever I want".
kthejoker2 6y ago
It's pretty clear the real villains are the king and queen, their complete lack of accountability to their kingdom and their practically grown daughters is mind boggling. Also, as someone pointed out on Reddit, Hans may have put Elsa in those power-sapping handcuffs in the castle prison,but he sure didn't build them. Her parents were totally willing to Bertha Mason her if things went south.

154 points by xivzgrev 6y ago

A shame it’s down, because the article mostly points out how strange and off Frozen is as a movie compared to Disney’s more archetypical offerings of fairie tells and princesses that they’re known for. It has a tone where it’s trying to make sense of what’s actually a pretty confusing and bad plot line.

veddox 6y ago
Yes, it's an interesting take, but I'm afraid that plot is beyond redemption :D Frozen is a great movie for its characters, its world animation, and of course its songs. But the betrayal at the end just makes zero sense (and might arguably rank as the greatest Disney plot fail of all times?). I actually thought Frozen 2 was a much better movie - one of the rare cases of a sequel being better. Same characters, same animation, same quality songs; but an unusual plotline with well-executed twists and a much greater "depth" to it than normal Disney movies.
- guidedlight 6y ago
  My understanding is that Disney struggled for a movie adaptation of The Snow Queen for decades, and the breakthrough was having two sisters as the protagonists one who would be the Snow Queen that fled into hiding when her powers were revealed. It seems that fairly strong opening plot was enough to convince Disney execs to proceed and the writers filled in the blanks.
  - bombcar 6y ago
    Frozen makes a lot more sense if you consider the hero AND the villain to both be Elsa. The apparent “villains” in the movie are just plot advancement tools and don’t bear looking too deep at.
    - staticman2 6y ago
      The movie would work pretty well if Hans was well intentioned and just felt he just had to kill Elsa in the end to save everybody. I think there was an interview where the creators said the real villain is fear- but that's not really the movie they made. They got close to making that movie but blew it with Hans's mustache twirling villain revelation scene.
- statstutor 6y ago
  > But the betrayal at the end just makes zero sense It's more surprising than we expect from Disney: there's no 'villain song' explaining the villain's private intent. I liked it that way. It felt real to me. I felt that I had been tricked, even after the naivety of the love/relationship was heavily foreshadowed. (I felt that) we experience the scene more exactly as Anna does.
  - jfengel 6y ago
    The song in the position of the Villain Song is "Let It Go". Which is quite remarkable. The ways that Frozen breaks the expected beats make it a lot of fun -- the "twist" is genuinely unexpected because the story isn't following the tropes. But those tropes exist for a reason, and Frozen feels a little disjointed for failing to follow them. You feel tricked because you were tricked. And yet it works, if for no other reason than the way a magic trick is fun. It has strong performances, great animation, and a positive message about the power of sisterhood.
  - ip26 6y ago
    A good twist/betrayal certainly requires it catch you by surprise, but relatable villains can add a lot to a story.
- cooperadymas 6y ago
  What doesn't make sense about it? The only thing that makes it a surprising twist is that it's a Disney movie where we expect our villains to wear cloaks and fur coats and twirl their mustaches and explain their motivations in Act 1. Otherwise the seeds are all there. He's an ambitious thirteenth son of a king, literally ignored by his brothers and likely neglected by his own parents. He has no future in his own land. He says outright that he's "been searching [his] whole life to find [his] own place." After just one night he's trying to marry the naive young princess desperate for love (which was, btw, already established). He jumps at an opportunity to take charge and win the hearts of the people when Anna rides off. If this were anything but a Disney movie, by that point everyone would be asking themselves what he's really up to.
  - atomicnumber3 6y ago
    This is always my take on Hans. If anything, this is Disney subverting their own trope of "instant true love". They literally make fun of it for the entire movie. I think every single major character has either a serious (Elsa) or flabbergasted (Sven [sic]) response and openly and directly derides her for it.
    - veddox 6y ago
      > If anything, this is Disney subverting their own trope of "instant true love". Oh, absolutely. And that's one of the plot's redeeming features in my eyes. But it's a long stretch to get from the lovesick princeling to the ruthless, sinister usurper. At the start of the movie, Hans is naive and/or willing to capitalise on Anna's naiveté, but there is no indication whatsoever that he is actively evil. And as the OP showed, there would have been ample opportunities for the scriptwriter to foreshadow any such negative side to his character; and there would have been much better opportunities for Hans to carry out his evil plans.
      - anotherman554 6y ago
        Hans is simultaneously trying to destroy the older sister, woo the younger sister, while also making the people think he's a good person who should lead them. That's a very tough line to walk on so I don't think he had better opportunities.
- phamilton 6y ago
  My beef with Frozen 2 is it basically is homeopathy as a fairy tale. And homeopathy bothers me.

robocat 6y ago

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frereubu 6y ago

Seems to be down. Wayback machine link: https://web.archive.org/web/20201031003357/https://pixelatedgeek.com/2019/12/the-secret-villains-of-the-original-frozen-movie/ https://web.archive.org/web/20201031003357/https://pixelated...

huffmsa 6y ago

That the trolls didn't reveal the past to Anna when she visited them always strikes me as odd. They're definitely playing for their own interests.

huffmsa 6y ago
And for that matter, why didn't Kristoff ever tell her that he'd seen her as a child and that she'd gone to the trolls before.
- kagaw 6y ago
  Kristoff is brainwashed. Remember when he saw the trolls and the royal family? A troll show up beside Kristoff and said "Cuties! I'm gonna keep you!" (That's the weirdest line, I've ever heard in that movie). After that, the troll do its magic brainwash to Kristoff. The trolls motive is to keep their power in secret. And Kristoff is just a kid, it is possible that his father is one of the iceman(the opening scene cutting ice).
  - huffmsa 6y ago
    I did think it was weird that they abruptly adopted him. He didn't seem like an orphan.
    - atomicnumber3 6y ago
      In Disney movies, that's easily remedied.
Twirrim 6y ago
I've had the trolls pegged as evil since the first viewing for one specific reason: "Only an act of true love can thaw a frozen heart". That was what sent Anna off to find Hans, but also the key for Elsa. Love is at the heart of her control of her powers, not fear. The trolls knew, but instead of teaching her this and helping her learn how to control her powers, they taught her to fear them.

robotbikes 6y ago

Having listened to the b-side of the Frozen soundtrack a few too many times where the original composers talk about earlier versions of the plot that were changed. Such as increased conflict between Anna & Elsa where Anna wanted Elsa to go back to suppressing her powers and a kid's pageant about a curse of ever lasting winter and sword sacrifice let me just say that I think the original plot would have been more interesting. In addition the original Elsa sketches were much more frightening. So I think Elsa is actually the true villain grappling with her powers and alienation from society and the Hans thing is just a bad plot point.

bombcar 6y ago
Exactly - it’s an Elsa story and the villains are just “triggers” in Elsa’s story. She’s a classic “redeemed villain” arc - just with the story focusing on her.
wodenokoto 6y ago
Well, it’s very loosely based on the Hans Christian Anderson story about an evil Ice Queen, so it makes sense that the early iterations had a fairly sinister Elsa. According to Wikipedia: > The 2013 Walt Disney Animation Studios film Frozen was inspired by "The Snow Queen", and closely followed the original Andersen story early in the film's development. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snow_Queen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snow_Queen
- emilecantin 6y ago
  Fun fact: They're both named "La Reine des Neiges" in French. Imagine our confusion when we got the wrong one (a Russian studio made a pretty good movie of Anderson's story: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snow_Queen_(2012_film) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snow_Queen_(2012_film))
  - missblit 6y ago
    A Soviet Union studio made a pretty good movie of Anderson's story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snow_Queen_(1957_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snow_Queen_(1957_film)

oceanghost 6y ago

I've seen this movie 500 times at least (young daughters/nieces). The first mistake made here is, Disney plots are their own genre, and have been for many years. This plot does break some Disney tropes, but if you look closely, all the beats are there still. As a father and uncle, I appreciate this movie that is less male-centric. There is a lot of subtly in certain places-- the song between Anna and Hans, "Love is an Open Door" -- while the trap set is abhorrent-- if you understand the lyrics, these characters are not talking about "love", they are talking about second order effects of running from their (psychological) problems. In the song, nobody says the only thing that someone should say, "I love you because you are you." Rather, the song is purposefully shallow, "This is how you make me feel, about me." Moving on... The Trolls are equivalent to the "prophecy" trope we see in so much bad entertainment nowadays. They essentially lay out the entire movie for you. This is frighteningly common but one could argue in a movie for children it might be good to let them know whats going on. The Trolls just tell us the prophecy in an amusing manner, instead of being some boring scroll that was found or exposition that was told to us. They get a silly musical number, and honestly why are you watching a Disney movie if you didn't want a silly musical number by cute anthropomorphic, marketable things? The Trolls advice is indeed baffling... but the motivation to hide Elsa's powers are very well established-- magic is feared and punishable by death, and its even playful use directly harmed Anna. You could probably overlay real world problem here as a metaphor... The fact that the article misses this obvious point makes me wonder about the authenticity of the authors intent at all. The Trolls are a plot device in a movie that, was overall pretty-ok. They're not evil, they're just an escalator that moves the plot along. I like that the movie deviated slightly from Disney-standard plots. I don't want my kiddo to think a man needs to save her... we have a rule around here, "She can have as many Barbies as chemistry sets." Overall, it was a decent film. Fantastic movie, fantastic animation, and an "ok" plot. :-) Frozen 2 was more... wonderful and silly. I liked the film, the set piece at the denouement was wonderful, but we have to explore that Anna is obviously the spirit of fire, which wasn't broached.

lupire 6y ago
> , "She can have as many Barbies as chemistry sets." Why? A chemistry set has 50 pieces. A barbie is 1.

Toutouxc 6y ago

This is canon to me from now on. The original story is such a disappointment. It's like they ran out of funding after two thirds of the movie.

naringas 6y ago

What about the role of the parents? (the king and queen?) IMO they handle Elsa's powers in the worst way possible. The trolls sublty hint at what not to do: "fear is the worse you can do"; then they do exactly that. She's taught to deny and hide everything by her parents. So when they tragically die, she just keeps on the same self-repression path until it gets real bad.

Marazan 6y ago
Yes, The Trolls give some advice that the King and Queen completely mis-interpret. They think "Control her powers" means "Lock powers away"
cooperadymas 6y ago
It's clear that they don't know how to handle her powers and are doing the best they can, albeit yes, it was probably the worst way to handle it. They were scared that someone would get hurt by her powers (check) and that, if discovered, she would be deemed a monster (check). Furthermore, the troll king's advice was that Anna could not know about her powers or the damage from being struck in the head would return. So their only choice was to isolate the two sisters from one another. There was nothing intentionally villainous with the parents.
smileysteve 6y ago
This how it should have ended from 2014. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dach1nPbsY8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dach1nPbsY8

TulliusCicero 6y ago

> There is a glaring problem with his plan. His plan involves gaining power to the throne by marrying and murdering the rightful heir. However, monarchies determine who rule based on blood relatives. On the Norwegian royal court website family tree, the only people eligible for the crown were direct descendants. If both sisters die, then the heir to the throne is most likely a distant cousin way before Prince Hans could claim the throne. This person is overthinking this Disney movie more than a little bit.

staticman2 6y ago
They can't possibly believe their argument right, it's just a joke? Arendelle isn't a real kingdom. You can't cite the real world except as a joke.
ginko 6y ago
Norway also didn't exist as an independent kingdom until 1905 (instead being ruled by the king of Sweden) so using the current rules of succession don't make much sense. Actually if the royal family in one of the Scandinavian countries died out, it would be more than likely a king or prince from another Scandinavian country that's next in line for succession (like Prince Carl of Denmark became the Norwegian king Haakon VII in 1905), so pretty much what Hans was planning.
- chha 6y ago
  Although a Norwegian, I had to look this up. The line of succession in Norway is limited to the descendants of the living king, so as a result the list is fairly short with just 7 eligible candidates. If all those were to die, the Norwegian parliament would (in theory) select a new king or queen. In practice though, I suspect that we'd simply end the monarchy. This is unlike other monarchies where the line of succession is a bit larger. According to Wikipedia, the line of succession in the UK has more than 5000 entries. [1] [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_the_British_throne#Current_line_of_succession https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_the_British_thro...
- Cynox 6y ago

staticman2 6y ago

I read an interview where the screenwriter said Hans is a sociopath who mirrors people, and the screenwriter said mirroring people's body language is something she does herself in real life! I think the article is "trolling".

temporallobe 6y ago

Like other middle-aged men with young daughters, I have seen this movie probably 50 times now. It’s a great movie with a touching story and a clever plot, but the analysis is wrong and convoluted. The trolls were a plot device, plain and simple. Assigning further meaning to their role is pure speculation.

watwut 6y ago
Plus, I think that their wrong advice simply represented "common sense" wrong advice all of us get from various people in the course of our lives. It is much more simple and plausible explanation, "they were wrong" then trying to make ma big manipulation.
foxhop 6y ago
I just read the article to my 4 year ar old daughter and asked her, so what do you think, this article says the trolls are bad. "Do you think they were bad or good?" "well in the movie they were good, they only helped people and played" I think the trolls were bad and I felt hans significant character shift is better explained by troll magic than bad story telling. Fun read though!
- cpuguy83 6y ago
  I don't know... there are parts where it seems like Olaf was edited in after the fact... so don't discount bad storytelling :)
  - cogman10 6y ago
    Olaf was added because they got Josh Gad and needed a funny man role. Gad would have just finished up with BoM when they started doing voice recordings for frozen. Knowing nothing about the background, I'd bet gad was a pretty late addition to the cast. Knowing Disney, they are trying to make Gad the new Robin Williams. If you look for the advertising around Frozen there is a TON of focus on Olaf even though his role is really minor in the first movie. Same thing happened with Aladdin and the Genie.
- 6y ago

jansan 6y ago

Startup idea: Create a winter cloud that floats above your head in summer to keep you cool (or cold, or even frozen). Would be a blat to have one of these at a beach resort.

sbuttgereit 6y ago

A meta comment. When I read this article, I don't learn anything at all about Frozen. I do get some insight about how we can, or even like, to rationalize ideas (vs. reasoning about them). In this context it's harmless and maybe entertaining. Where rationalizing becomes a problem is when you rationalize what is real; to many rationalizing is in appearance not so far from reasoning that it's easy to confuse the two if you take too much for granted or assume too much trust in a speaker. Not always easy for even the most rational amongst us to differentiate. Failing to be conscious of this one fact, in my opinion, leads to many bad outcomes like believing in conspiracies, ignoring uncomfortable challenges to our beliefs, and otherwise pollutes the marketplace of ideas. I guess the points of the comment are to urge you to be always mindful of the distinction between rationalizing and reasoning and to always vigilant to the point of self-examination when the distinction may really matter.

smileysteve 6y ago

How did this get published in 2019 and shared in 2021? This analysis was done by "How It Should Have Ended" in 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dach1nPbsY8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dach1nPbsY8

dhosek 6y ago

Some of the comments here are unintentionally hilarious. The original article is a pretty good attempt at creating an alternate interpretation of the story (akin to, say, Grand Unified Pixar or Darth Jar-Jar). This is its own genre and some such reinterpretations are more successful than others and all will likely fall short insofar as they attempt to overlay an interpretation on a story that was not intended by the authors and necessarily are running contrary to authorial intent, with narratives that are richer in content and ambiguity being the most successful in allowing for this sort of reinterpretation (and that's leaving out intentionally ambiguous narratives like Total Recall).

mpettitt 6y ago

Another alternative look at the Frozen story is in Disney's Twisted Tales version ( https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Conceal,_Don%27t_Feel_(A_Twisted_Tale) https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Conceal,_Don%27t_Feel_(A_Twis... ) which shows an alternative way that the parents could have dealt with the situation. Still not ideal, but better that the canon version in terms of the mental impacts on various characters!

mac01021 6y ago

This is interesting, but a little weak. It reminds me of this other,10-year-old post about Tom Bombadil from the Lord of the Rings: https://km-515.livejournal.com/1042.html https://km-515.livejournal.com/1042.html

mcphage 6y ago

The author makes some interesting points, and I like the idea of "a Disney song never lies to the audience". But I don't agree with their statement here: > “Love is an Open Door” is a love ballad between Anna and Hans where they reveal their love and romantic chemistry for one another. This musical number exists as a genuine love song that is never re-contextualized later to fit an alternate meaning. Hans reveals that he wants to fit in and find his place, and that Anna is what gives him purpose. There are no hints or double meanings to grab onto in the lyrics. If these songs reveal the true intentions of these characters, all of Hans’ feelings are genuine. Specifically "no hints or double meanings to grab onto in the lyrics". This is one of the exchanges in the song: Hans: "I mean it's crazy" Anna: "What?" Hans: "We finish each other's--" Anna: "Sandwiches!" Hans: "That's what I was gonna say!" My question is, was Hans telling the truth here? Was he actually going to say "sandwiches?" Or was he lobbing a softball for her to finish, and she said something unexpected, and he pretended that was what he wanted to say? Because it really doesn't feel genuine on his part. I think he wanted her to say "sentences" because of course that's how you finish that sentence. He's trying to build rapport, and rather than responding genuinely to what she said, he lied about it. So no, I don't think "Love is an Open Door" is a love ballad. I think it's Hans trying to manipulate Anna's feelings. It's him leaning into what Anna was looking for, which was to be seen and accepted instead of ignored and pushed away.

Malician 6y ago
I'm honestly baffled that anyone sees this any other way. It didn't even occur to me as a possibility. The whole betrayal was not just telegraphed, it was directly shown in every aspect of how Hans interacted with Anna.
falcor84 6y ago
Agreed. And I think the lines "But with you ... I found my place" are also quite double-meant.
- mcphage 6y ago
  Even the song title works well in that way—"Love is an Open Door" to Anna means "I will finally be seen and accepted", whereas for Hans it means "Anna's love will let me walk in and do whatever I want".

kthejoker2 6y ago

It's pretty clear the real villains are the king and queen, their complete lack of accountability to their kingdom and their practically grown daughters is mind boggling. Also, as someone pointed out on Reddit, Hans may have put Elsa in those power-sapping handcuffs in the castle prison,but he sure didn't build them. Her parents were totally willing to Bertha Mason her if things went south.