4 ms·

It’s surprising to me how many people (especially in the US) fail to realize that many South/Central American countries have significant middle- and upper-class

It’s surprising to me how many people (especially in the US) fail to realize that many South/Central American countries have significant middle- and upper-class populations.

young_unixer 6y ago
We hace middle and upper class relative to our own levels of income. A person with a median income in the US probably lives much better than a person with a median income in Bolivia, yet they're both middle class relative to their own countries.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  Well, yes and no. You’re right everything is relative, but I think US media often gives off the impression of South/Latin America as a completely poverty-stricken landmass that people can’t wait to escape from so they come by foot or boat from Honduras or Cuba or Venezuela or Ecuador or Nicaragua or something. Also, I know people who own large properties in Colombia and a friend of mine owns a 500 cattle ranch in Bolivia (called La Pradera)... These folks are very well off, even by international and US standards. There is significant wealth in South America if you look in the right places. And many parts of Colombia are very metropolitan and modern, which has come as a surprise to people I know in the US/Europe.
  - starpilot 6y ago
    Colombia
    - mc32 6y ago
      Ultimately both commemorate Columbus (Cristoforo Colombo and/or Christophorus Columbus respectively).
    - sebmellen 6y ago
      Hey, thank you for the note. I just bought an iPhone and the autocorrect turns lowercase “colombia” into “columbia.” It does the opposite for cased versions of both words (Columbia -> Colombia). Either way, both spellings come from the same person (Christopher Columbus/Cristoforo Colombo).
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - mc32 6y ago
    Argentina was one of the richest countries in the world back in the early XX cent thanks to their beef industry (Mexico was also relatively well off at the time), on the other hand Finland and Norway for example were quite poor back then. Things can change and they do.
    - sebmellen 6y ago
      Things change, for sure. To say things change is probably an understatement... Just look at the history of the Middle East. From vast, wealthy empires to barren destruction, the Levant has seen it all.
      - mc32 6y ago
        True but people and nations have more agency than people give them credit for. Finland was invaded and at the mercy of imperial Russia, they also were under Swedish control, etc. in other words subject to imperialism. They suffered famines in the XX cent., not too long ago. People think, oh, imperialists messed with you, no wonder you’re poor! No, it’s local mismanagement. Look at Panama. From banana republic to a democratic republic. People have to work for it. Their government has to be more honest than not. Eliminate corruption as much as possible. Conversely look at San Francisco. So much money and so much corruption and waste. A decent government and it would be such a better place for everyone, including the poor.
        sebmellen 6y ago
        Agreed! There is a sort of belittlement that’s baked into the “overly compassionate” view of the world that robs people of their agency. Things can usually be fixed at a more immediate level if one can absolve everyone else of blame and do the hard work oneself. That’s not to say there aren’t large-scale problems which require collaboration to solve, though.
        imtringued 6y ago
        When I think of imperialism I often see the exact opposite. A more advanced society is (often violently) forcing modern customs upon the invaded population and when the imperialists leave a lot of those modern customs get lost and the country turns into a backwater again. The imperialists might be evil, but they clearly knew what they were doing.
mbg721 6y ago
Colombia in particular hasn't gotten a lot of press in the US other than for coffee and the drug war.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
  Perhaps, but being somewhat over the hill and not too far from retirement I feel like the secret is already out regarding Medellin being a great place for US ex-pats to retire.
- schoen 6y ago
  I've noticed that too. I got to visit Colombia twice in the past couple of years and it was lovely, yet before I went I mostly had the same associations you mentioned ("coffee and the drug war"). The Colombians I met (who are, of course, not reflective or representative of everyone in the country) were extremely optimistic and excited for the future of their country. Some random things I remember about Colombia: * Cycling is big there. There are more bike lanes than pretty much anywhere else in Latin America. The practice of closing streets on a particular day for community cycling originated there (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciclov%C3%ADa); https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciclov%C3%ADa); in pre-pandemic San Francisco you might have encountered this as "Sunday Streets". It was mainly inspired by Colombia. Colombia has also had an increasing number of competitors in the Tour de France, including the 2019 overall winner, Egan Bernal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egan_Bernal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egan_Bernal). * It's very, very mountainous. People in the U.S. might know Peru (and maybe Bolivia) as Andean countries, but there are four countries in the Andean Community (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andean_Community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andean_Community) (which is primarily a trade bloc rather than a geographic designation), and the mountain range continues along the entirety of the west side of South America. Most of Colombia's population lives near the mountains, although the biggest cities are primarily centered in valleys, sometimes stretching far up into the hills. There are dramatic views all over the place. Three cities have aerial tramways (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aerial_tramways#_Colombia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aerial_tramways#_Colom...) either for commuters or tourists. I also heard that, as in other mountainous regions elsewhere in the world, the major cities have maintained significantly different cuisines and dialects because of how much effort it took to travel between regions, even when they were pretty close by as the crow flies. * There are lots of public parks in the big cities, and they get a lot of use, even long into the evening. It probably helps a lot that it's quite warm in Colombia, but I also felt that this was a cultural thing. I was impressed at how much safer I felt in parks in Colombia at night than I would in urban parks in the U.S., probably in a Jane Jacobs "eyes on the street" sense. * There are well-attended tech meetups and conferences. :-) * "El Dorado" was originally a person, not a city, although it's not clear if the person really existed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Dorado https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Dorado). * They make delicious things with corn (really, probably true of anywhere in or adjacent to Central America). * Medellín (unlike other cities in Colombia) has a large, effective metro system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medell%C3%ADn_Metro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medell%C3%ADn_Metro). Edit: A striking thing I forgot to mention is the calle/carrera system, where most cities make enormous use of numbered streets and avenues, to a much greater extent than ever I've seen anywhere else. Imagine if every city were like Manhattan, but with a numbered grid imposed over much larger parts of the city, even parts that weren't visually part of the main numbered grid. Colombian city streets are overwhelmingly numbered rather than named, and the Manhattan-style "5th at 40th" references are the norm.

It’s surprising to me how many people (especially in the US) fail to realize that many South/Central American countries have significant middle- and upper-class populations.

young_unixer 6y ago

We hace middle and upper class relative to our own levels of income. A person with a median income in the US probably lives much better than a person with a median income in Bolivia, yet they're both middle class relative to their own countries.

sebmellen 6y ago
Well, yes and no. You’re right everything is relative, but I think US media often gives off the impression of South/Latin America as a completely poverty-stricken landmass that people can’t wait to escape from so they come by foot or boat from Honduras or Cuba or Venezuela or Ecuador or Nicaragua or something. Also, I know people who own large properties in Colombia and a friend of mine owns a 500 cattle ranch in Bolivia (called La Pradera)... These folks are very well off, even by international and US standards. There is significant wealth in South America if you look in the right places. And many parts of Colombia are very metropolitan and modern, which has come as a surprise to people I know in the US/Europe.
- starpilot 6y ago
  Colombia
  - mc32 6y ago
    Ultimately both commemorate Columbus (Cristoforo Colombo and/or Christophorus Columbus respectively).
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    Hey, thank you for the note. I just bought an iPhone and the autocorrect turns lowercase “colombia” into “columbia.” It does the opposite for cased versions of both words (Columbia -> Colombia). Either way, both spellings come from the same person (Christopher Columbus/Cristoforo Colombo).
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- mc32 6y ago
  Argentina was one of the richest countries in the world back in the early XX cent thanks to their beef industry (Mexico was also relatively well off at the time), on the other hand Finland and Norway for example were quite poor back then. Things can change and they do.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    Things change, for sure. To say things change is probably an understatement... Just look at the history of the Middle East. From vast, wealthy empires to barren destruction, the Levant has seen it all.
    - mc32 6y ago
      True but people and nations have more agency than people give them credit for. Finland was invaded and at the mercy of imperial Russia, they also were under Swedish control, etc. in other words subject to imperialism. They suffered famines in the XX cent., not too long ago. People think, oh, imperialists messed with you, no wonder you’re poor! No, it’s local mismanagement. Look at Panama. From banana republic to a democratic republic. People have to work for it. Their government has to be more honest than not. Eliminate corruption as much as possible. Conversely look at San Francisco. So much money and so much corruption and waste. A decent government and it would be such a better place for everyone, including the poor.
      - sebmellen 6y ago
        Agreed! There is a sort of belittlement that’s baked into the “overly compassionate” view of the world that robs people of their agency. Things can usually be fixed at a more immediate level if one can absolve everyone else of blame and do the hard work oneself. That’s not to say there aren’t large-scale problems which require collaboration to solve, though.
      - imtringued 6y ago
        When I think of imperialism I often see the exact opposite. A more advanced society is (often violently) forcing modern customs upon the invaded population and when the imperialists leave a lot of those modern customs get lost and the country turns into a backwater again. The imperialists might be evil, but they clearly knew what they were doing.

mbg721 6y ago

Colombia in particular hasn't gotten a lot of press in the US other than for coffee and the drug war.

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
Perhaps, but being somewhat over the hill and not too far from retirement I feel like the secret is already out regarding Medellin being a great place for US ex-pats to retire.
schoen 6y ago
I've noticed that too. I got to visit Colombia twice in the past couple of years and it was lovely, yet before I went I mostly had the same associations you mentioned ("coffee and the drug war"). The Colombians I met (who are, of course, not reflective or representative of everyone in the country) were extremely optimistic and excited for the future of their country. Some random things I remember about Colombia: * Cycling is big there. There are more bike lanes than pretty much anywhere else in Latin America. The practice of closing streets on a particular day for community cycling originated there (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciclov%C3%ADa); https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciclov%C3%ADa); in pre-pandemic San Francisco you might have encountered this as "Sunday Streets". It was mainly inspired by Colombia. Colombia has also had an increasing number of competitors in the Tour de France, including the 2019 overall winner, Egan Bernal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egan_Bernal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egan_Bernal). * It's very, very mountainous. People in the U.S. might know Peru (and maybe Bolivia) as Andean countries, but there are four countries in the Andean Community (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andean_Community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andean_Community) (which is primarily a trade bloc rather than a geographic designation), and the mountain range continues along the entirety of the west side of South America. Most of Colombia's population lives near the mountains, although the biggest cities are primarily centered in valleys, sometimes stretching far up into the hills. There are dramatic views all over the place. Three cities have aerial tramways (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aerial_tramways#_Colombia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aerial_tramways#_Colom...) either for commuters or tourists. I also heard that, as in other mountainous regions elsewhere in the world, the major cities have maintained significantly different cuisines and dialects because of how much effort it took to travel between regions, even when they were pretty close by as the crow flies. * There are lots of public parks in the big cities, and they get a lot of use, even long into the evening. It probably helps a lot that it's quite warm in Colombia, but I also felt that this was a cultural thing. I was impressed at how much safer I felt in parks in Colombia at night than I would in urban parks in the U.S., probably in a Jane Jacobs "eyes on the street" sense. * There are well-attended tech meetups and conferences. :-) * "El Dorado" was originally a person, not a city, although it's not clear if the person really existed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Dorado https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Dorado). * They make delicious things with corn (really, probably true of anywhere in or adjacent to Central America). * Medellín (unlike other cities in Colombia) has a large, effective metro system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medell%C3%ADn_Metro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medell%C3%ADn_Metro). Edit: A striking thing I forgot to mention is the calle/carrera system, where most cities make enormous use of numbered streets and avenues, to a much greater extent than ever I've seen anywhere else. Imagine if every city were like Manhattan, but with a numbered grid imposed over much larger parts of the city, even parts that weren't visually part of the main numbered grid. Colombian city streets are overwhelmingly numbered rather than named, and the Manhattan-style "5th at 40th" references are the norm.