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No where is it advertised that autopilot handles partial lane obstructions or debris in the road, certainly better than a human. Regardless what your opinion i

No where is it advertised that autopilot handles partial lane obstructions or debris in the road, certainly better than a human. Regardless what your opinion is on the naming, autopilot is a form of cruise control and legally and operationally requires driver attention, 100% of the time.

Judgmentality 6y ago
> No where is it advertised that autopilot handles partial lane obstructions or debris in the road, certainly better than a human. I'd say the CEO advertises it otherwise. https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-tesla-autopilot-60-minutes-interview/ https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-tesla-autopilot-60-min...
- andrewmunsell 6y ago
  Elon says a lot of things he shouldn't, but the user accepts a very clear disclaimer before enabling Autopilot: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/images/autosteer-enable-s-x.jpg https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/images/autosteer-e...
  - mike_d 6y ago
    Oh, there is some disclaimer text, so it is OK that the chief executive of a company lies to its customers, investors, and regulators. Thanks for clearing that up!
  - falcolas 6y ago
    A disclaimer? Oh, then it's all perfectly fine then! And it refers people to the owners manual to get all the nitty-gritty details. Of course, the owners manual is likely not updated when Autopilot is via OTA updates. A disclaimer, like a clickwrap TOS, is not enough to take away Tesla's culpability. You can't sign away your life.
    - Udik 6y ago
      I am not sure what should Tesla do exactly? Make Autopilot less capable? Rename it to "not-an-Autopilot"?
      - falcolas 6y ago
        They could start by naming their systems appropriately. "Adaptive Cruise Control" "Lane Keeping Assistance" "Automatic Emergency Braking" The same names (standardized names, really) used by other auto companies offering similar capabilities.
      - rsynnott 6y ago
        Yes, change the name, change the marketing, and get their CEO's Twitter under control. I mean, imagine this in any other industry. CEO: "Our new FireSafety-O brand insulation is fire safe!" [Some houses catch fire] Company lawyers: "Well, didn't you read the post-purchase disclaimer that says it's made out of shredded newspaper and kerosene, and is only suitable for use in a non-oxidizing atmosphere? Ignore the CEO, he's deranged."
dragontamer 6y ago
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/866482406160609280 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/866482406160609280 > Update on the coast to coast autopilot demo? > Still on for end of year. Just software limited. Any Tesla car with HW2 (all cars built since Oct last year) will be able to do this. Date of tweets: 2017, almost 4 years ago. They've been advertising "coast to coast autopilot" and "Full Self Driving" features for years now.
- andrewmunsell 6y ago
  Neither of which they've actually shown happen. Those are things that don't exist, and autopilot is distinct from FSD
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    FSD has been sold since... years ago. I don't even remember when they started selling FSD, its just an option on Tesla cars for a long long time now. That's the thing: the features of this are are named "autopilot" and "full self driving". What do you expect people to do when they spend $5000 or $10,000 on "full self driving" ?
nrmitchi 6y ago
If you call your product "Autopilot", or "Full Self Driving", it is 100% reasonable for a consumer to assume that it will handle not driving in to things in the road appropriately. It's dishonest to dismiss this with "regardless of your opinion on the naming".
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  I believe a similar hypothesis is being tested as relates to Google Chrome's "Incognito Mode" and whether users should have expectation that the browser takes active steps to mask who you are to servers you access (as opposed to modifying its policies for storing cookies and locally-cached files). In that case, the law has not yet decided. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/03/judge-rules-5-billion-google-chrome-incognito-mode-lawsuit-can-go-forward/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/03/judge-rules-5-billio...
  - nrmitchi 6y ago
    The big difference here is that Incognito Mode isn't going to kill both the user and other people on the road if you use it wrong.
- andrewmunsell 6y ago
  Look, I understand people have issues with the naming. FSD is a separate issue and they've been selling it for years without having any sort of working software you can actually use, without any indication that it ever will work as advertised (an "actual" full self-driving system). But if a plane on autopilot crashed because the pilot wasn't paying attention, the pilot would be at 100% fault. That's the origin of the naming, even if it's confusing to a layperson. I'm not here to argue about whether they should call it this or not.
  - nrmitchi 6y ago
    Autopilot in an airplane is something used by people who have gone through explicit training and licensing in order to be allowed to fly an airplane. Even getting a basic private pilot's license, which has extreme restrictions on when you can fly, takes months. Expecting the same level of competency and understanding of tools from an airline pilot, and the every day driver who hasn't passed a driving test since they were 16 years old, is ludicrous at best.
danso 6y ago
A suspended license doesn’t mean that an operator is functionally unable to avoid ramming into obvious obstacles. Unless there is evidence that the driver intentionally meant to ram the police car or other wise cause harm through gross negligence, then his suspended license (and the fact that the hit car belongs to a cop) is a detail, but not the story. To put it another way, if a driver suffers a seizure on the highway, and Autopilot was able to avoid all collisions and bring the driver safely to the side of the road, what do you think the headline should be? “Driver suffers seizure on interstate, automatic driving system steers car to safety” Or: “Man successfully drives on interstate while having an incapacitating seizure”
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
Ah, yes, the good old Exact Words: "We sold you a car that drives, we never said it can drive uphill!" Regardless of you opinion, autopilot kills people, because its not possible to suddenly take over from an automoua car that decided to kill you, in 50ms. We have mountains of evidence on reaction time

Judgmentality 6y ago

> No where is it advertised that autopilot handles partial lane obstructions or debris in the road, certainly better than a human. I'd say the CEO advertises it otherwise. https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-tesla-autopilot-60-minutes-interview/ https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-tesla-autopilot-60-min...

andrewmunsell 6y ago
Elon says a lot of things he shouldn't, but the user accepts a very clear disclaimer before enabling Autopilot: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/images/autosteer-enable-s-x.jpg https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/images/autosteer-e...
- mike_d 6y ago
  Oh, there is some disclaimer text, so it is OK that the chief executive of a company lies to its customers, investors, and regulators. Thanks for clearing that up!
- falcolas 6y ago
  A disclaimer? Oh, then it's all perfectly fine then! And it refers people to the owners manual to get all the nitty-gritty details. Of course, the owners manual is likely not updated when Autopilot is via OTA updates. A disclaimer, like a clickwrap TOS, is not enough to take away Tesla's culpability. You can't sign away your life.
  - Udik 6y ago
    I am not sure what should Tesla do exactly? Make Autopilot less capable? Rename it to "not-an-Autopilot"?
    - falcolas 6y ago
      They could start by naming their systems appropriately. "Adaptive Cruise Control" "Lane Keeping Assistance" "Automatic Emergency Braking" The same names (standardized names, really) used by other auto companies offering similar capabilities.
    - rsynnott 6y ago
      Yes, change the name, change the marketing, and get their CEO's Twitter under control. I mean, imagine this in any other industry. CEO: "Our new FireSafety-O brand insulation is fire safe!" [Some houses catch fire] Company lawyers: "Well, didn't you read the post-purchase disclaimer that says it's made out of shredded newspaper and kerosene, and is only suitable for use in a non-oxidizing atmosphere? Ignore the CEO, he's deranged."

dragontamer 6y ago

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/866482406160609280 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/866482406160609280 > Update on the coast to coast autopilot demo? > Still on for end of year. Just software limited. Any Tesla car with HW2 (all cars built since Oct last year) will be able to do this. Date of tweets: 2017, almost 4 years ago. They've been advertising "coast to coast autopilot" and "Full Self Driving" features for years now.

andrewmunsell 6y ago
Neither of which they've actually shown happen. Those are things that don't exist, and autopilot is distinct from FSD
- dragontamer 6y ago
  FSD has been sold since... years ago. I don't even remember when they started selling FSD, its just an option on Tesla cars for a long long time now. That's the thing: the features of this are are named "autopilot" and "full self driving". What do you expect people to do when they spend $5000 or $10,000 on "full self driving" ?

nrmitchi 6y ago

If you call your product "Autopilot", or "Full Self Driving", it is 100% reasonable for a consumer to assume that it will handle not driving in to things in the road appropriately. It's dishonest to dismiss this with "regardless of your opinion on the naming".

shadowgovt 6y ago
I believe a similar hypothesis is being tested as relates to Google Chrome's "Incognito Mode" and whether users should have expectation that the browser takes active steps to mask who you are to servers you access (as opposed to modifying its policies for storing cookies and locally-cached files). In that case, the law has not yet decided. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/03/judge-rules-5-billion-google-chrome-incognito-mode-lawsuit-can-go-forward/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/03/judge-rules-5-billio...
- nrmitchi 6y ago
  The big difference here is that Incognito Mode isn't going to kill both the user and other people on the road if you use it wrong.
andrewmunsell 6y ago
Look, I understand people have issues with the naming. FSD is a separate issue and they've been selling it for years without having any sort of working software you can actually use, without any indication that it ever will work as advertised (an "actual" full self-driving system). But if a plane on autopilot crashed because the pilot wasn't paying attention, the pilot would be at 100% fault. That's the origin of the naming, even if it's confusing to a layperson. I'm not here to argue about whether they should call it this or not.
- nrmitchi 6y ago
  Autopilot in an airplane is something used by people who have gone through explicit training and licensing in order to be allowed to fly an airplane. Even getting a basic private pilot's license, which has extreme restrictions on when you can fly, takes months. Expecting the same level of competency and understanding of tools from an airline pilot, and the every day driver who hasn't passed a driving test since they were 16 years old, is ludicrous at best.

danso 6y ago

A suspended license doesn’t mean that an operator is functionally unable to avoid ramming into obvious obstacles. Unless there is evidence that the driver intentionally meant to ram the police car or other wise cause harm through gross negligence, then his suspended license (and the fact that the hit car belongs to a cop) is a detail, but not the story. To put it another way, if a driver suffers a seizure on the highway, and Autopilot was able to avoid all collisions and bring the driver safely to the side of the road, what do you think the headline should be? “Driver suffers seizure on interstate, automatic driving system steers car to safety” Or: “Man successfully drives on interstate while having an incapacitating seizure”

ClumsyPilot 6y ago

Ah, yes, the good old Exact Words: "We sold you a car that drives, we never said it can drive uphill!" Regardless of you opinion, autopilot kills people, because its not possible to suddenly take over from an automoua car that decided to kill you, in 50ms. We have mountains of evidence on reaction time