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I think we have two options: to expand to outer space, or to expand to virtual reality and eventually become digital beings. I'm not sure if these options are m

by Geee 6y ago

I think we have two options: to expand to outer space, or to expand to virtual reality and eventually become digital beings. I'm not sure if these options are mutually exclusive, but for the curious mind the digital option would probably be more rewarding with less effort. We even might gradually lose our capability to interact with physical reality, which might be the great filter. In digital form, it's much easier to travel to outer space though. We just need to send transceiver probes in advance. If we want to manifest physically, we just have to print robotic bodies in the destination. Edit: I just realized that even if we're in digital form, we have to fight for physical energy and resources, assuming that we want to keep expanding the digital realm and the capacity of our consciousness. So, in some form we have to expand physically.

flir 6y ago
Even if you're spending all your time in Infinite Fun Space, someone needs to stay home in base reality to make sure the lights stay on.
- praptak 6y ago
  Maybe your tech allows self repairing Infinite Fun Space simulators which are also impossible to destroy, as they are inside stars, inside black holes or made of matter that doesn't interact with anything else.
  - arethuza 6y ago
    I will say that I found the end to the Baroque Cycle in Fall; or, Dodge in Hell to be really satisfying. I won't explain how it relates to your comment though - go read all of them!
    - e40 6y ago
      This one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baroque_Cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baroque_Cycle I don't see a Fall there.
      - arethuza 6y ago
        Well, its not so much a direct part of The Baroque Cycle as a continuation using descendants of the main characters and a lot of shared themes - a bit like Cryptonomicon. However, The Baroque Cycle does have some unusual minor elements such as 'magical' gold and an important character, Enoch Root, who appears to me immortal and who turns up in 17th, 18th, 20th and 21st centuries. Fall gives an explanation of what is going on that I really liked.
arethuza 6y ago
Have you read Diaspora by Greg Egan? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(novel)
- lazyweb 6y ago
  Read it a few years ago. The chapter describing an emerging consciousness through a feedback loop is something I think about every once in a while. On a related note, currently working through 'Gödel, Escher, Bach'.
  - vcxy 6y ago
    Check out "I Am a Strange Loop" if you haven't. It's like GEB, but he had a few more decades to refine the ideas. Both great books though!
- Geee 6y ago
  No, I haven't. Seems really interesting, thanks.
- teekert 6y ago
  Came here to suggest this novel... as it answers OP with: Why not both?
darepublic 6y ago
the 'digital form' computers could be on a spaceship that is programmed to try to guarantee it always has enough power, acquired via stars, to power the computers in which the non stop orgasm universe is running
hindsightbias 6y ago
Running at 4GHz, you're going to get tired of existence a lot faster than you would in the physical world.
- lupire 6y ago
  You can create new virtual worlds to enjoy.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    May or may not be enough, we’ll only find out by doing it. The speed difference between synapses firing vs transistors firing is about the same as speed difference between a wolf and the hill the wolf is standing on. Coincidentally this is also the size difference.
- flir 6y ago
  As long as you're not interacting with the outside world, what does the computational speed of your substrate matter? Your in-universe clock runs at the same speed you do.
sonofhans 6y ago
There’s no reason to believe that humans living as “digital beings” will ever be possible. We don’t even know what consciousness is yet, never mind how to replicate it in a non-human substrate. Most living humans will still argue that consciousness roughly equates to a soul. Leave that nonsense aside, and you’re still left with the mind-body problem: are those two things the same or different? If mind and body are the same — that is, if the experience of being a conscious human is emergent and/or dependent upon a human body — digital uploads are just copies of ephemeral state. Imagine a hell full of James T Kirk replicas, each regretting the time he stepped into a transporter and died, allowing a copy of him to be made elsewhere. If mind and body are different, you’re picking up the Cartesian problem — how do they influence each other at all? What is the mind made of that it can simultaneously affect the body, yet somehow exist separately from it? Neal Stephenson published “Fall” last year which treats this as a purely technical problem. Once our scanning resolution is good enough, he supposes, we’ll be able to create perfect digital replicas of brains. That’s tripe, of course. Human consciousness is dependent on much more than our brains. In fact, we have special words for how consciousness presents when disconnected from bodily sensation, words like “sleep” and “coma.” Sensory deprivation chambers isolate us from some of the sensations outside our bodies, but leave all internal sensations intact. These external and internal sensations make us who we are. For instance, we cannot emulate consciousness without first emulating the billions of gut bacteria, across thousands of distinct species, that affect the physical rhythms of our bodies. Even quadriplegic’s moods and consciousnesses are influenced by their gut bacteria. How much of the universe do you need to simulate in order to accurately simulate one human being? All of it, it turns out. And even then, there’s no reason to believe that human will be or feel the same as the meat substrate from which it was copied. The whole affair is nonsense. edit: typo
- cyberpunk 6y ago
  I’m not sure it’s so far fetched. Scanning sure, that’s a separate consciousness or a copy, but what if you replaced one neuron at a time with a digital/electrical component? Wouldn’t there be a point, around halfway, that you would be more robot than human? And so you can become totally digital if you accept that losing one neuron wouldn’t be enough to end your current stream of consciousness?
speeder 6y ago
About your edit: That is the plot of the excellent early access game "Dyson Sphere Project". In the game backstory humanity became entirely digital, but found out AFTER that, the energy requeriments are staggering, so they send the player in a robot body to fix the energy issue. (you start building solar panels and thermoelectric powerplants and whatnot until you can build a dyson swarm and finally a dyson sphere).

by Geee 6y ago

flir 6y ago

Even if you're spending all your time in Infinite Fun Space, someone needs to stay home in base reality to make sure the lights stay on.

praptak 6y ago
Maybe your tech allows self repairing Infinite Fun Space simulators which are also impossible to destroy, as they are inside stars, inside black holes or made of matter that doesn't interact with anything else.
- arethuza 6y ago
  I will say that I found the end to the Baroque Cycle in Fall; or, Dodge in Hell to be really satisfying. I won't explain how it relates to your comment though - go read all of them!
  - e40 6y ago
    This one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baroque_Cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baroque_Cycle I don't see a Fall there.
    - arethuza 6y ago
      Well, its not so much a direct part of The Baroque Cycle as a continuation using descendants of the main characters and a lot of shared themes - a bit like Cryptonomicon. However, The Baroque Cycle does have some unusual minor elements such as 'magical' gold and an important character, Enoch Root, who appears to me immortal and who turns up in 17th, 18th, 20th and 21st centuries. Fall gives an explanation of what is going on that I really liked.

arethuza 6y ago

Have you read Diaspora by Greg Egan? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(novel)

lazyweb 6y ago
Read it a few years ago. The chapter describing an emerging consciousness through a feedback loop is something I think about every once in a while. On a related note, currently working through 'Gödel, Escher, Bach'.
- vcxy 6y ago
  Check out "I Am a Strange Loop" if you haven't. It's like GEB, but he had a few more decades to refine the ideas. Both great books though!
Geee 6y ago
No, I haven't. Seems really interesting, thanks.
teekert 6y ago
Came here to suggest this novel... as it answers OP with: Why not both?

darepublic 6y ago

the 'digital form' computers could be on a spaceship that is programmed to try to guarantee it always has enough power, acquired via stars, to power the computers in which the non stop orgasm universe is running

hindsightbias 6y ago

Running at 4GHz, you're going to get tired of existence a lot faster than you would in the physical world.

lupire 6y ago
You can create new virtual worlds to enjoy.
- ben_w 6y ago
  May or may not be enough, we’ll only find out by doing it. The speed difference between synapses firing vs transistors firing is about the same as speed difference between a wolf and the hill the wolf is standing on. Coincidentally this is also the size difference.
flir 6y ago
As long as you're not interacting with the outside world, what does the computational speed of your substrate matter? Your in-universe clock runs at the same speed you do.

sonofhans 6y ago

There’s no reason to believe that humans living as “digital beings” will ever be possible. We don’t even know what consciousness is yet, never mind how to replicate it in a non-human substrate. Most living humans will still argue that consciousness roughly equates to a soul. Leave that nonsense aside, and you’re still left with the mind-body problem: are those two things the same or different? If mind and body are the same — that is, if the experience of being a conscious human is emergent and/or dependent upon a human body — digital uploads are just copies of ephemeral state. Imagine a hell full of James T Kirk replicas, each regretting the time he stepped into a transporter and died, allowing a copy of him to be made elsewhere. If mind and body are different, you’re picking up the Cartesian problem — how do they influence each other at all? What is the mind made of that it can simultaneously affect the body, yet somehow exist separately from it? Neal Stephenson published “Fall” last year which treats this as a purely technical problem. Once our scanning resolution is good enough, he supposes, we’ll be able to create perfect digital replicas of brains. That’s tripe, of course. Human consciousness is dependent on much more than our brains. In fact, we have special words for how consciousness presents when disconnected from bodily sensation, words like “sleep” and “coma.” Sensory deprivation chambers isolate us from some of the sensations outside our bodies, but leave all internal sensations intact. These external and internal sensations make us who we are. For instance, we cannot emulate consciousness without first emulating the billions of gut bacteria, across thousands of distinct species, that affect the physical rhythms of our bodies. Even quadriplegic’s moods and consciousnesses are influenced by their gut bacteria. How much of the universe do you need to simulate in order to accurately simulate one human being? All of it, it turns out. And even then, there’s no reason to believe that human will be or feel the same as the meat substrate from which it was copied. The whole affair is nonsense. edit: typo

cyberpunk 6y ago
I’m not sure it’s so far fetched. Scanning sure, that’s a separate consciousness or a copy, but what if you replaced one neuron at a time with a digital/electrical component? Wouldn’t there be a point, around halfway, that you would be more robot than human? And so you can become totally digital if you accept that losing one neuron wouldn’t be enough to end your current stream of consciousness?

speeder 6y ago

About your edit: That is the plot of the excellent early access game "Dyson Sphere Project". In the game backstory humanity became entirely digital, but found out AFTER that, the energy requeriments are staggering, so they send the player in a robot body to fix the energy issue. (you start building solar panels and thermoelectric powerplants and whatnot until you can build a dyson swarm and finally a dyson sphere).