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> The incessant celebration of Sparta in the culture of the West is truly abhorrent. Socrates was killed for being a Sparta supporter in Athens (also for being

> The incessant celebration of Sparta in the culture of the West is truly abhorrent. Socrates was killed for being a Sparta supporter in Athens (also for being a formidable troll). His loving pupil Plato went on to start the whole "Western civilization" thing. Make of that what you want, but for anybody who knows some history, your sentence will sound pretty confusing and contradictory. The celebration of Sparta is not some decadent modern fad; it lies at the very root of our civilization! We are defined by being Sparta supporters.

leto_ii 6y ago
> Socrates was killed for being a Sparta supporter in Athens I think Socrates' admiration for Sparta is questioned by some scholars. Since the man himself didn't leave behind any written work, all we know of him we know indirectly, mostly from Plato. Popper for example considers that a lot of the more authoritarian ideas ascribed to Socrates were actually Plato's views [1]. The general problem of figuring out what exactly Socrates thought, how he acted etc. is actually a significant sub-field of scholarship [2]. > His loving pupil Plato went on to start the whole "Western civilization" thing This is silliness. While the tremendous importance of Classical Greece can't be denied, the idea that there is a monolithic thing called 'Western Civilization' that has a clear start is extremely simplistic. Are the Egyptians, the Phoenicians, the Etruscans, the Minoans, the Hittites etc. not part of 'Western Civilization'? How about the Christians that spent many centuries actually destroying and forgetting the works and achievements of the ancient world [3]? > The celebration of Sparta is not some decadent modern fad; it lies at the very root of our civilization! We are defined by being Sparta supporters. This is even more silliness. By the same token you could say that slavery or infanticide lie at the very root of 'our civilization'. We (who exactly is we in this case? Americans? Europeans? people of the Levant or North Africa?) are defined by our actions and beliefs, not by some supposedly sacred historical heritage that should never be questioned or relinquished lest that leads to the collapse of our current society. [1] 'Contrary to major Plato scholars of his day, Popper divorced Plato's ideas from those of Socrates, claiming that the former in his later years expressed none of the humanitarian and democratic tendencies of his teacher. In particular, Popper accuses Plato of betraying Socrates in the Republic, wherein Plato portrays Socrates sympathizing with totalitarianism' in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Society_and_Its_Enemies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Society_and_Its_Enemi... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_problem [3] See for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darkening_Age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darkening_Age
- ogogmad 6y ago
  > How about the Christians that spent many centuries actually destroying and forgetting the works and achievements of the ancient world [3]? This is apparently a myth. See: https://historyforatheists.com/2020/03/the-great-myths-8-the-loss-of-ancient-learning/ https://historyforatheists.com/2020/03/the-great-myths-8-the...
  - leto_ii 6y ago
    While Nixey's work has come under criticism, calling the whole idea a myth is too dismissive. Once early Christianity became the state religion it acted very aggressively towards anything that could be considered 'pagan'. Take a look at the following article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_pagans_in_the_late_Roman_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_pagans_in_the_l... At one point the degree of callousness was so high that they even stripped the roof of the Pantheon in Rome for copper [1]. Things like this bring up images of Isis blowing up Palmyra, not the idea of a smooth and enlightened preservation and continuation of the classical Greco-Roman world. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon,_Rome#Medieval https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon,_Rome#Medieval
goto11 6y ago
> His loving pupil Plato went on to start the whole "Western civilization" thing. That is an absurd claim! Plato is perhaps the most important philosopher, but other creations of Greek culture like tragedy, comedy, epics, history, sculpture, architecture, democracy, geometry predates Plato. Plato actually hated a lot of the things we consider civilization like poetry, acting and democracy.
matkoniecz 6y ago
> His loving pupil Plato went on to start the whole "Western civilization" thing. What you mean by that? > We are defined by being Sparta supporters. Even if you assume that "Plato went on to start the whole "Western civilization" thing." then it does not mean that we are defined by what his mentor supported.
- enriquto 6y ago
  > What you mean by that? I was thinking about a celebrated quotation by A.N.Whitehead: "The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato." > it does not mean that we are defined by what his mentor supported Plato's entire written corpus consists in Socrates speaking. If you accept Plato's great influence, you have that.
  - jhbadger 6y ago
    Supposedly. We have no idea to what degree Plato's character of Socrates resembles the real one. It's a pretty common strategy even today to put one's own ideas into the mouths of famous dead people, as that makes them seem more profound.
watwut 6y ago
I am not defined by Socrates or Plato. I dont think they define us as a civilization either, despite regular and persistent attempts of some people to claim so. Socrates hated democracy, we are trying to be one. Socrates got executed and the further developments went without him.

leto_ii 6y ago

> Socrates was killed for being a Sparta supporter in Athens I think Socrates' admiration for Sparta is questioned by some scholars. Since the man himself didn't leave behind any written work, all we know of him we know indirectly, mostly from Plato. Popper for example considers that a lot of the more authoritarian ideas ascribed to Socrates were actually Plato's views [1]. The general problem of figuring out what exactly Socrates thought, how he acted etc. is actually a significant sub-field of scholarship [2]. > His loving pupil Plato went on to start the whole "Western civilization" thing This is silliness. While the tremendous importance of Classical Greece can't be denied, the idea that there is a monolithic thing called 'Western Civilization' that has a clear start is extremely simplistic. Are the Egyptians, the Phoenicians, the Etruscans, the Minoans, the Hittites etc. not part of 'Western Civilization'? How about the Christians that spent many centuries actually destroying and forgetting the works and achievements of the ancient world [3]? > The celebration of Sparta is not some decadent modern fad; it lies at the very root of our civilization! We are defined by being Sparta supporters. This is even more silliness. By the same token you could say that slavery or infanticide lie at the very root of 'our civilization'. We (who exactly is we in this case? Americans? Europeans? people of the Levant or North Africa?) are defined by our actions and beliefs, not by some supposedly sacred historical heritage that should never be questioned or relinquished lest that leads to the collapse of our current society. [1] 'Contrary to major Plato scholars of his day, Popper divorced Plato's ideas from those of Socrates, claiming that the former in his later years expressed none of the humanitarian and democratic tendencies of his teacher. In particular, Popper accuses Plato of betraying Socrates in the Republic, wherein Plato portrays Socrates sympathizing with totalitarianism' in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Society_and_Its_Enemies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Society_and_Its_Enemi... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_problem [3] See for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darkening_Age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darkening_Age

ogogmad 6y ago
> How about the Christians that spent many centuries actually destroying and forgetting the works and achievements of the ancient world [3]? This is apparently a myth. See: https://historyforatheists.com/2020/03/the-great-myths-8-the-loss-of-ancient-learning/ https://historyforatheists.com/2020/03/the-great-myths-8-the...
- leto_ii 6y ago
  While Nixey's work has come under criticism, calling the whole idea a myth is too dismissive. Once early Christianity became the state religion it acted very aggressively towards anything that could be considered 'pagan'. Take a look at the following article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_pagans_in_the_late_Roman_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_pagans_in_the_l... At one point the degree of callousness was so high that they even stripped the roof of the Pantheon in Rome for copper [1]. Things like this bring up images of Isis blowing up Palmyra, not the idea of a smooth and enlightened preservation and continuation of the classical Greco-Roman world. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon,_Rome#Medieval https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon,_Rome#Medieval

goto11 6y ago

> His loving pupil Plato went on to start the whole "Western civilization" thing. That is an absurd claim! Plato is perhaps the most important philosopher, but other creations of Greek culture like tragedy, comedy, epics, history, sculpture, architecture, democracy, geometry predates Plato. Plato actually hated a lot of the things we consider civilization like poetry, acting and democracy.

matkoniecz 6y ago

> His loving pupil Plato went on to start the whole "Western civilization" thing. What you mean by that? > We are defined by being Sparta supporters. Even if you assume that "Plato went on to start the whole "Western civilization" thing." then it does not mean that we are defined by what his mentor supported.

enriquto 6y ago
> What you mean by that? I was thinking about a celebrated quotation by A.N.Whitehead: "The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato." > it does not mean that we are defined by what his mentor supported Plato's entire written corpus consists in Socrates speaking. If you accept Plato's great influence, you have that.
- jhbadger 6y ago
  Supposedly. We have no idea to what degree Plato's character of Socrates resembles the real one. It's a pretty common strategy even today to put one's own ideas into the mouths of famous dead people, as that makes them seem more profound.

watwut 6y ago

I am not defined by Socrates or Plato. I dont think they define us as a civilization either, despite regular and persistent attempts of some people to claim so. Socrates hated democracy, we are trying to be one. Socrates got executed and the further developments went without him.