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> They produced no literature, goods, art or bequeathed anything to posterity other than their notoriety as a brutal martial society even that is being question

by IncRnd 6y ago

> They produced no literature, goods, art or bequeathed anything to posterity other than their notoriety as a brutal martial society even that is being questioned. The messy Romans were far better and interesting through their start as a monarchy, transitioning through republic and empire to end as a theological autocracy. I think you picked-up a skewed version of History. Sparta, the first democracy in recorded history, was one of the few Grecian areas where women could go to school, own property, and engage in sports. Throughout the rest of Greece, most women were illiterate. The Spartan constitution is the first known to have an Assembly composed of all citizens. Plutarch said, "devotion to the intellect is more characteristic of Sparta than love of physical exercise." Socrates said, "the most ancient and fertile homes of philosophy among the Greeks are Crete and Sparta, where are found more sophists than anywhere on earth." The oldest recorded heterosexual love poem was the work of a Spartan poet praising Spartan maidens.

spaced-out 6y ago
>Throughout the rest of Greece, most women were illiterate. Most women in Sparta were illiterate too.
andi999 6y ago
Thanks, I read up on the democracy claim, and I was very surprised. Today I learnt something new.
- tom_mellior 6y ago
  Namely, you learned that "an Assembly composed of all citizens" is not meaningful democracy if the class of "citizens" is defined so narrowly that this comes out to a tiny ruling class dominating a vast majority of subjugated people.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
    That is a good description of the Athenian democracy where only landed indigenous men were part of the demos, women had no rights, let alone the right to vote, immigrants (metoikoi) also could not vote or own real estate and the economy was supported by relentless slave labour. Note, all this was 2,000 years ago.
  - krageon 6y ago
    It's fascist, but still a democracy of sorts. Of course, the fact that it is fascist means it shouldn't be worshipped.
    - IncRnd 6y ago
      Not desiring Fascism through Democracy is one of the reasons the US has a bicameral legislature and the President has a veto power. Much of the Federal Structure is to protect the rights of the individual in the context of rulemaking by the majority. This is a constant source of friction, but it is intentional, the reasons for which are shown in this very discussion.

by IncRnd 6y ago

spaced-out 6y ago

>Throughout the rest of Greece, most women were illiterate. Most women in Sparta were illiterate too.

andi999 6y ago

Thanks, I read up on the democracy claim, and I was very surprised. Today I learnt something new.

tom_mellior 6y ago
Namely, you learned that "an Assembly composed of all citizens" is not meaningful democracy if the class of "citizens" is defined so narrowly that this comes out to a tiny ruling class dominating a vast majority of subjugated people.
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
  That is a good description of the Athenian democracy where only landed indigenous men were part of the demos, women had no rights, let alone the right to vote, immigrants (metoikoi) also could not vote or own real estate and the economy was supported by relentless slave labour. Note, all this was 2,000 years ago.
- krageon 6y ago
  It's fascist, but still a democracy of sorts. Of course, the fact that it is fascist means it shouldn't be worshipped.
  - IncRnd 6y ago
    Not desiring Fascism through Democracy is one of the reasons the US has a bicameral legislature and the President has a veto power. Much of the Federal Structure is to protect the rights of the individual in the context of rulemaking by the majority. This is a constant source of friction, but it is intentional, the reasons for which are shown in this very discussion.