5 ms·

I just keep my mouth shut talking to anyone in a minority status, born in the west, that I don't know well. I've seen it go wrong several times so I'm just 100%

by dottlt 6y ago

I just keep my mouth shut talking to anyone in a minority status, born in the west, that I don't know well. I've seen it go wrong several times so I'm just 100% business. I'll get hate for admitting this, but what am I supposed to do? No one wants to think critically or challenge their beliefs on the matter, so if I'm not willing to 100% toe the line if I do make a mistake then either I have to debase myself in an Orwellian "there are two fingers" moment, or I get in trouble. I'm not willing to do either.

christiansakai 6y ago
In my mostly 99% Asian circle of friends, we have a few white people, and I can't help but be super uncomfortable every time the topic of racism being brought up, because I was thinking "dang, how would these white friends in our circle feel, they must've felt uncomfortable in these kinds of conversations". Yeah, heads you lose tails I win kinda situation. In my circle of Asians, we have our own trouble as well. My wife is Japanese, and I grew up influenced heavily by Japanese culture (I'm Indonesian Chinese), but majority of my circle is 99% Koreans and Chinese. So yeah every time WWII or Japan/Korea/China thing gets brought up I also just stay silent and will just ask my wife to go home early or pretend we have some business to do. Definitely something will go wrong. We are in our 20s - 30s, and WWII are our grandparents generations battle. We are aware of Japan's WWII problem, but we aren't gonna pretend we know what to do.
- pnutjam 6y ago
  Now imagine how uncomfortable the non-whites are in almost any other conversation or setting.
  - wcarron 6y ago
    > I'm Asian The person you are replying to
    - ngokevin 6y ago
      It fits the bill. Asians are treated as white in tech. There's never any conversation around Asian-Americans. It's awkward because we're not quite Asian, but not quite treated as fully American either. Many programs have checkboxes to identify as minority groups (black, LBGTQ+, women, LatinX, which is great), but not Asians, who are statistically one of the biggest minorities at ~5%. Despite my family being refugees, much of which died getting here. Despite eastern culture being almost the polar opposite of western culture. I wish that counted for something more. Not asking for any special treatment because I feel Asian-Americans just put their head down and do the work. But it's stark how silent the conversation around Asian-Americans is, except for when we talk about Crazy Rich Asians.
      - wcarron 6y ago
        > It fits the bill. Asians are treated as white in tech. Or are they treated as asians? This whole thing is complicated, but including asian people as 'white' when it is colloqially used to mean 'caucasian european' for the most part, is just disigenuous and moving the goalposts.
        ngokevin 6y ago
        Never in tech have I seen conversation about Asian Americans been brought up. When I say, they're treated as white, it's more like they're treated "not a POC", which only leaves a designation of white. Except Asians don't get put in leadership positions as easily as white counterparts (bamboo ceiling). I've seen many times (online at least) where people have explicitly said Asians don't count as POC, despite facing a large brunt of racism.
        recursive 6y ago
        > Never in tech have I seen conversation about Asian Americans been brought up. But also > Except Asians don't get put in leadership positions as easily as white counterparts I guess it's now been brought up, so that's a milestone.
  - junon 6y ago
    Define "non-white", because two messages above were written by someone categorically "non-white".
  - recursive 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure this is exactly the type of comment being talked about here.
- rolph 6y ago
  >>...thing gets brought up I also just stay silent...<< when you are not blinded by the sound of your own voice you can see beyond your eyes
ipsocannibal 6y ago
The only problem with your statement is you didn't include women, the disabled, gays, any trans person, or any other newly conjured victimized group in your 100% business attitude. It is simply too politically incorrect to deal with people in these groups as critically thinking beings even if they are so best to just avoid any conversation that isn't absolutely necessary. The best bet is to pretend to be a hapless robot and make the interaction end as soon as possible, much in the way minority groups attempt to minimize their interactions with the police. It is a useful survival mechanism in a no win scenario. Stray into victimization territory and you'll either be asked to self-flagulate or be accussed of an '-ism'. I waiting for the word 'conversation' to be redefined by the intersectionalists much like 'racism'.
- adkadskhj 6y ago
  It sucks, too. I am super progressive but rather critical of solutions. Which is to say, i agree with an assessment of almost all problems and want to discuss solving them. BUT, discuss, is the key there. I'm interested in peoples views. On what actually can solve the problems. Racism for example i believe as a series of mitigation strategies and a core principle of education and standard of living. Yet, i don't discuss this stuff with anyone interesting. Just my core group, and my core group has had this conversation to death.. nothing to be gained anymore. So i don't grow on these subjects. I don't feel more progressive. I don't feel like i understand the problems better, or the solutions, and certainly don't know which areas i'm motivated to help in. Because i want to discuss, to critically analyze the problem space and try to question and verify solutions, i'm terrified of being labeled an -ist. This isn't a "woe is me" post. Rather, this is my explanation that in my eyes i am _less progressive_ as a result of this culture. I _act/help less_ in this culture. This culture shuts me - a self identified very progressive liberal - down.
  - ipsocannibal 6y ago
    Purists of any ideological bent have a tendency to alienate potental friends and excite their adversaries due to their overwhelming emphasis on argument by authority and appeals to shame. They are divisive by definition and generally lose their struggle because of it. Your comment is an excellent reflection of how the purists cut off their noes to spite their face.
CyberRabbi 6y ago
That’s the rational thing to do. Lots of risk, little reward. Everyone reaps what they sow eventually anyway.
bpt3 6y ago
> Orwellian "there are two fingers" moment Would you mind sharing what this means and what the context is? I think I get what you mean, but don't understand the reference.

by dottlt 6y ago

christiansakai 6y ago

In my mostly 99% Asian circle of friends, we have a few white people, and I can't help but be super uncomfortable every time the topic of racism being brought up, because I was thinking "dang, how would these white friends in our circle feel, they must've felt uncomfortable in these kinds of conversations". Yeah, heads you lose tails I win kinda situation. In my circle of Asians, we have our own trouble as well. My wife is Japanese, and I grew up influenced heavily by Japanese culture (I'm Indonesian Chinese), but majority of my circle is 99% Koreans and Chinese. So yeah every time WWII or Japan/Korea/China thing gets brought up I also just stay silent and will just ask my wife to go home early or pretend we have some business to do. Definitely something will go wrong. We are in our 20s - 30s, and WWII are our grandparents generations battle. We are aware of Japan's WWII problem, but we aren't gonna pretend we know what to do.

pnutjam 6y ago
Now imagine how uncomfortable the non-whites are in almost any other conversation or setting.
- wcarron 6y ago
  > I'm Asian The person you are replying to
  - ngokevin 6y ago
    It fits the bill. Asians are treated as white in tech. There's never any conversation around Asian-Americans. It's awkward because we're not quite Asian, but not quite treated as fully American either. Many programs have checkboxes to identify as minority groups (black, LBGTQ+, women, LatinX, which is great), but not Asians, who are statistically one of the biggest minorities at ~5%. Despite my family being refugees, much of which died getting here. Despite eastern culture being almost the polar opposite of western culture. I wish that counted for something more. Not asking for any special treatment because I feel Asian-Americans just put their head down and do the work. But it's stark how silent the conversation around Asian-Americans is, except for when we talk about Crazy Rich Asians.
    - wcarron 6y ago
      > It fits the bill. Asians are treated as white in tech. Or are they treated as asians? This whole thing is complicated, but including asian people as 'white' when it is colloqially used to mean 'caucasian european' for the most part, is just disigenuous and moving the goalposts.
      - ngokevin 6y ago
        Never in tech have I seen conversation about Asian Americans been brought up. When I say, they're treated as white, it's more like they're treated "not a POC", which only leaves a designation of white. Except Asians don't get put in leadership positions as easily as white counterparts (bamboo ceiling). I've seen many times (online at least) where people have explicitly said Asians don't count as POC, despite facing a large brunt of racism.
        recursive 6y ago
        > Never in tech have I seen conversation about Asian Americans been brought up. But also > Except Asians don't get put in leadership positions as easily as white counterparts I guess it's now been brought up, so that's a milestone.
- junon 6y ago
  Define "non-white", because two messages above were written by someone categorically "non-white".
- recursive 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure this is exactly the type of comment being talked about here.
rolph 6y ago
>>...thing gets brought up I also just stay silent...<< when you are not blinded by the sound of your own voice you can see beyond your eyes

ipsocannibal 6y ago

The only problem with your statement is you didn't include women, the disabled, gays, any trans person, or any other newly conjured victimized group in your 100% business attitude. It is simply too politically incorrect to deal with people in these groups as critically thinking beings even if they are so best to just avoid any conversation that isn't absolutely necessary. The best bet is to pretend to be a hapless robot and make the interaction end as soon as possible, much in the way minority groups attempt to minimize their interactions with the police. It is a useful survival mechanism in a no win scenario. Stray into victimization territory and you'll either be asked to self-flagulate or be accussed of an '-ism'. I waiting for the word 'conversation' to be redefined by the intersectionalists much like 'racism'.

adkadskhj 6y ago
It sucks, too. I am super progressive but rather critical of solutions. Which is to say, i agree with an assessment of almost all problems and want to discuss solving them. BUT, discuss, is the key there. I'm interested in peoples views. On what actually can solve the problems. Racism for example i believe as a series of mitigation strategies and a core principle of education and standard of living. Yet, i don't discuss this stuff with anyone interesting. Just my core group, and my core group has had this conversation to death.. nothing to be gained anymore. So i don't grow on these subjects. I don't feel more progressive. I don't feel like i understand the problems better, or the solutions, and certainly don't know which areas i'm motivated to help in. Because i want to discuss, to critically analyze the problem space and try to question and verify solutions, i'm terrified of being labeled an -ist. This isn't a "woe is me" post. Rather, this is my explanation that in my eyes i am _less progressive_ as a result of this culture. I _act/help less_ in this culture. This culture shuts me - a self identified very progressive liberal - down.
- ipsocannibal 6y ago
  Purists of any ideological bent have a tendency to alienate potental friends and excite their adversaries due to their overwhelming emphasis on argument by authority and appeals to shame. They are divisive by definition and generally lose their struggle because of it. Your comment is an excellent reflection of how the purists cut off their noes to spite their face.

CyberRabbi 6y ago

That’s the rational thing to do. Lots of risk, little reward. Everyone reaps what they sow eventually anyway.

bpt3 6y ago

> Orwellian "there are two fingers" moment Would you mind sharing what this means and what the context is? I think I get what you mean, but don't understand the reference.