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Saying that the left spends too much effort on rhetoric might be valid criticism, but focusing on it as reasons to "walk away from the left" (which not too many

by pron 6y ago

Saying that the left spends too much effort on rhetoric might be valid criticism, but focusing on it as reasons to "walk away from the left" (which not too many black Americans are doing, BTW) is disingenuous. Sure, the left talks about rhetoric, but it also fights for higher wages, civil liberties, healthcare, affirmative action, investment in education, workers' rights, and voting rights. It's fine not to like everything a certain political camp does, but presenting things as if that's where all or even most of the effort is is just factually wrong. Of course, knowing that this aspect is less popular, media organisations like Fox News have chosen to focus on Dr. Seuss for the past couple of weeks rather than the debate on minimum wage, so really this aspect is more of the right's focus than the left's. "Wokeism" (and the even more made-up "cancel culture") is the new War on Christmas. Sure, there are enough instances to turn into hysteria if that's in your interest, but the actual work is elsewhere.

prepend 6y ago
> which not too many black Americans are doing, BTW It’s pretty hard to measure such a statement, but I noticed that Trump won 8% of the black vote in 2020 and 6% in 2016. [0] And it seems Romney won 6% in 2012. [1] It’s not smart to extrapolate some trend from these three data points, but I don’t think its accurate to dismiss claims that this isn’t happening. Comically, dismissing the claims of a literal black person walking away from the left speaking of others in vis community is sort of like what the author is saying happens with people patronizing black persons and making decisions for them (eg, “it’s not happening” and “master offends you”). [0] https://www.vox.com/2020/11/4/21537966/trump-black-voters-exit-polls https://www.vox.com/2020/11/4/21537966/trump-black-voters-ex... [1] http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/how-groups-voted-2012 http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/how-groups-voted-2012
- pron 6y ago
  I am not dismissing any claims, but having a >90% party allegiance based on ethnicity is such an extreme situation, that ascribing reversions to one aspect of the left (which, true enough, the right wants to focus on), is just projection and also an exaggeration. I saw a recent interview with David Shor [1], who said that the conservative/progressive split in the US (based on self-identification, IIRC) is about 60/40 across all ethnicities, but that many vote based on reasons other than ideology. But now we're seeing a trend across the board, where people's votes increasingly align more with ideology. So many conservative blacks vote Democrat, and might be shifting away because of a general emphasis on ideology. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ8UDzUvMg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ8UDzUvMg0
  - eli_gottlieb 6y ago
    That actually makes perfect sense of the "walking away" talk, though. It was extreme and unusual in the first place that ardent conservatives would vote for the same political party as socialist activists based solely on race or identity. That was really weird, actually, and an end to that kind of thing is just "reversion to the mean" of people voting for what they actually believe in.
    - pron 6y ago
      Sure, but they were attributing it to a very specific cause rather than general ideological disagreement, not to mention that the number of black people walking away from the Democratic party is not large, certainly compared to the level of support.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Surely the point is that if you cite one person, you can claim anything? Whether that's of the left or the right. You have to look a little closer to see whether that's a common or a fringe view and among what group of people.
- hannofcart 6y ago
  I don't consider myself informed enough about this subject to detract from your assertions, but confining myself to the stats you presented, the trend of 6(2012), 6(2016) and 8(2020) seems to bolster the 'status quo' claim, that Black Americans are NOT leaving the left (Dems), rather than undermine it, does it not? I could be missing something here for sure. Like I mentioned am not well versed in American race politics nor in statistics.
  - vmception 6y ago
    It does suggest that Also add this to your data collection efforts: 1) A lot of black people don't identify as black on government forms. Whether it is for the census, some voter form I might not be aware of, a vaccine enrollment, or on a standardized test in the private sector. Out of previously substantiated fear of worse treatment or discrimination, but an inability to tell which contexts and future contexts. There won’t be data on this. 2) A lot (maybe most?) of black people don't live in states where their vote really matters for the Presidency or the Senate. Population centers, California, New York. While there is also a cultural pride in leveraging the earned ability to vote (and sustained ability at the individual level, as felons have their rights removed in many states). So there are additional deterrents in wasting it on non-consensus views of that state. 3) The way I saw the data collected about % of black people voting seemed to be based surveys, and not really cross referencing all voter data with the census. Feel free to correct my understanding and I would like to read more about that.
- tikiman163 6y ago
  These numbers require more context to be meaningful. First, this was for his second term, which typically sees an increase in support. Second, Biden was instrumental in quite a few policies over the years that were generally bad for black Americans, and he was extremely critical of the BLM and police reform (de-fund) movements. Third, the percentage of black Americans which don't live in poverty has increased, and middle class black Americans are more likely to be fiscally conservative for the same reasons that all middle class Americans are more likely to be fiscal conservatives than those who live below the poverty line.
  - ta988 6y ago
    The right was also extremely critical of BLM (calling them terrorists) and de-fund. But not all black people defend those anyway. The wealth argument seems much more plausible to me.
DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
> Sure, the left talks about rhetoric, but it also fights for higher wages, civil liberties, healthcare problem with this line is that those in power now in America aren't solving any of these issues. they engage in window dressing and have been doing so since at least Clinton. they are left-INO. What US considers center left actually is right. Unless a new progressive party is formed (AOC, Sanders etc) and this party manages then to become a serious contender and accepted in mainstream, US politics will remain what it is: a farce. edit: Right Marcuseanism - Herbert Marcuse’s “Repressive Tolerance” is often cited as the progenitor of the censorious left, but its real ideological heirs are now on the right: https://outsidertheory.com/right-marcuseanism/ https://outsidertheory.com/right-marcuseanism/ (I shared this yesterday and it's a shame it hasn't gotten more traction considering it goes much deeper into the problem than any (justified) rant on master/slave branches and Tech/github's hypocrisy)
- is-ought 6y ago
  If we'd believe the slanted tone of the post you're responding to I suppose we should at least take solace in only one of Americas two parties having all the right answers.
- halfmatthalfcat 6y ago
  The ACA is window dressing? Dodd-Frank and the CPA? DADT Repeal? The Paris Agreement?
  - easton 6y ago
    The ACA isn't single-payer healthcare (and didn't really bring down the cost of healthcare much if at all[0]), so I think by the standards of the left in other countries, it is window dressing. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Care_Act#Insurance_costs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Care_Act#Insurance_...
    - halfmatthalfcat 6y ago
      We're not talking about the left in other countries, we're talking about the left in the United States. Within that context, the ACA is a progressive piece of legislation. You can just agree to the point rather than move the goalposts.
dcolkitt 6y ago
> but focusing on it as reasons to "walk away from the left" (which not too many black Americans are doing, BTW) Wasn’t it black moderates that powered centrist Biden to the nomination? Bernie and Warren’s failure to gain any significant traction with the black electorate sunk their progressive candidacies.
- pron 6y ago
  But that's because many Democrats aren't all that progressive. Being progressive doesn't mean focusing on rhetoric. It mostly means certain views on the economy that many black Democrats disagree with at this time. Sanders in particular isn't considered all that "woke", and still primary voters shifted to Biden.
  - matwood 6y ago
    > But that's because many Democrats aren't all that progressive. The people in the US aren't all that progressive.
- erezsh 6y ago
  Funny, the way I remember it, they forced Sanders out without any voting (and for the second time in a row!)
  - TFrancis 6y ago
    Why can't you remember any voting during the primaries?
- JansjoFromIkea 6y ago
  I'm not sure any data regarding Biden specifically is worth much in terms of future assessment because such a huge amount of it would be tied to Obama's enduring massive popularity amongst all democrat demographics along with being the nostalgic "return to normal" option. There really isn't anywhere to go with that beyond Biden (unless they convince Michelle Obama to run?). Iirc a substantial number of Biden voters had Sanders as their 2nd preference too? The new options they presented flopped pretty badly. It's hard to look at Harris on the basis of her performance in the 2020 primary as being an especially strong frontrunner but it's even harder to think up of any alternatives who will be in strong enough of a position to displace her.
AzzieElbab 6y ago
“ s. Sure, the left talks about rhetoric, but it also fights for higher wages, civil liberties, healthcare, affirmative action, investment in education, workers' rights, and voting rights.” I don’t think the person you are replying to would agree with you about affirmative actions being a good thing. Other than that, the left is super repressive of free speech which is the only civil right left to win , detrimental to wage growth and worker rights by supporting unlimited immigration, bad for education by siding with teachers unions, manipulative when it comes to voting to the point when half of the country does not believe in elections. The right simply does not exist in the institutional level at this point, all they can do is whine about excesses of the left
- chriswarbo 6y ago
  > the left is... manipulative when it comes to voting to the point when half of the country does not believe in elections I disagree with essentially everything you're saying, but how on Earth can you write that with a straight face? I mean, five seconds on Google gives me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Donald_Trump#2016_Presidential_election_results https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Dona... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Donald_Trump#Voting_by_mail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Dona... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Donald_Trump#2020_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Dona... Many elected Republicans are still lying about the election results. How is that 'the left' being 'manipulative when it comes to voting'? Not to mention the slew of disenfranchisement policies being drawn up by Republicans at the moment. > The right simply does not exist in the institutional level at this point, all they can do is whine about excesses of the left Erm, what "left" are you referring to? US politics is a battle between Pepsi vs Coke https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020 https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020
  - tekknik 6y ago
    > Many elected Republicans are still lying about the election results. So we have voter IDs and secure voting? Did you miss the part about lack of confidence in voting? If we don’t have voter IDs how is the right lying? Or are you just trying to reaffirm the narrative?
einpoklum 6y ago
Note that the grandparent post did not talk about the Left, but rather, the "Left". Not the same thing.
is-ought 6y ago
I find this post defensive in tone. At some point America's popular culture will internalize that the wage gap was a myth and etc and appreciate that the left has been peddling pseudoscience for ages in the name of intellectual vanity. Too many generations lost being the lefts rosemary kennedy.
- ryanbrunner 6y ago
  In what way is the wage gap a myth? You can argue that the wage gap isn't primarily due to absolute discrimination, but that the wage gap exists is an objective fact.
  - throwaway53453 6y ago
    The observed differences is due to choices like having babies and choosing different career paths, but for the same job it's objectively illegal to pay female workers less. The feminists argue by taking the average of all wages, and of course women produce less economic value overall when they're still the primary caregiver in most societies.
    - blacktriangle 6y ago
      The real crime is because the value generated by primary caregivers is not in dollars changing hands, and thus not taxable, no government has any interest in honestly measuring that value. The value of a primary caregiver is massive and it's criminal that we as a civlization have demonized women and men who choose to fill that role.
      - throwaway53453 6y ago
        Yup, I totally agree. There's also a good chance this total breakdown in culture is partly a symptom of parenting being demonized.
  - dghlsakjg 6y ago
    The ‘myth’ of the wage gap is that it’s an aggregate number. It is sometimes/often presented as women make 73% of the wages of men for doing the same work. It isn’t true for the same work though. When you do apples to apples comparisons of equivalent positions the gap frequently closes to almost nothing. The wage gap is better phrased as ‘women, on average, do jobs that pay only 73% as much as men’. Which, in my opinion, is actually a far worse and harder to solve problem. Paying women the same as their male counterparts is easy. That’s why there isn’t really much of a gap in same profession comparisons. Getting women into more lucrative careers or getting Society to pay more for traditionally women dominated industries is much much harder. To your question: The wage gap ‘myth’ is the misinterpretation of the statistic to say that women are paid much less for the same work.
sokoloff 6y ago
Without exception, all of the most talented individuals I’ve met wanted to be seen and interacted with as individuals. It’s Sally the engineer, not a nameless member of women-in-technology. Or Clinton the engineer, not a recent SWE graduate of an HBCU. Protectionist thinking is off-putting to many when it strays over some imaginary line to where I act as if I must be the champion for an underrepresented group because they think I think they are less capable. When I join with them to help, it’s generally welcome; when an influential person speaks as if that help is charitable (rather than equitable), it puts off some people.
zozbot234 6y ago
> Sure, the left talks about rhetoric, but it also fights for higher wages, civil liberties, healthcare, affirmative action, investment in education, workers' rights, and voting rights. And the right pursues many of these things as well, albeit in very different and sometimes polarizing ways. But we should not pretend that leftist policies are not just as polarizing.
- nnvvhh 6y ago
  The word "pursue" is doing a hell of a lot of work in your idea of the American right "pursuing voting rights." They're pursuing them like a hunting dog pursues a kill.
- SamBam 6y ago
  What are some examples of the right (and I mean more than a single lonely senator) fighting for higher wages, healthcare, affirmative action, workers' rights, and voting rights?
  - DenisM 6y ago
    Trump’s China tariffs were supposed to increase wages. Trump also pushed down prescription prices, and I believe some sort of price transparency in healthcare. Not sure how well it worked tho. As to worker rights - both sides are equally happy to throw them under the bus.
eli_gottlieb 6y ago
>Saying that the left spends too much effort on rhetoric might be valid criticism, but focusing on it as reasons to "walk away from the left" (which not too many black Americans are doing, BTW) is disingenuous. That depends whether you distinguish between the Left and the Democratic Party. Most minority voters remain firm Democrats, although fewer than in 2016. Many/most minorities I've met, including myself, are completely disenchanted with "the Left" as an activist bloc that tries to take over or derail the Party. That bloc is simply two or three times as strict about "culture war" issues - which I agree with you are ultimately nigh-meaningless, but alas - as about the "kitchen table" issues where most people actually agree with them. In short, you can be a racial or ethnic minority who wants universal healthcare, a new voting rights bill, and to strengthen workers' unions, but then you dissent from the "Left" agenda on one culture-war issue, one that theoretically applies to your group but which you were never consulted about, and bam, the Left hates you and wants you gone. "Everyone get in line, we have to stop Trump" only worked while Trump was in office. It's hard to tell people we all need to get behind whichever street protest is marching downtown now, with Biden in office willingly signing surprisingly progressive bills like the stimulus.
- pron 6y ago
  > I agree with you are ultimately nigh-meaningless I didn't say they're meaningless. Sadly, I'm one of those noisy, crazy woke, anti-free-speech neo-Marxists, but that doesn't mean I don't care more about minimum wage and healthcare. The culture war is very important to me, but other things are even more important/urgent. > and bam, the Left hates you and wants you gone. Nope. When such large groups are concerned, of course you'll find people who'd want to ostracize you one way or the other, so the choice of what the "Left" is to you is ultimately on you. If that's what you focus on, an aspect of the left that you don't like but which has been a part of it for a hundred years, then you're just looking for excuses.
  - eli_gottlieb 6y ago
    >Nope. When such large groups are concerned, of course you'll find people who'd want to ostracize you one way or the other, so the choice of what the "Left" is to you is ultimately on you. If that's what you focus on, an aspect of the left that you don't like but which has been a part of it for a hundred years, then you're just looking for excuses. Funny thing: you're dismissing my case here without even bothering to find out what the object-level example was going to be! You skipped the part where I explicitly specified that I'm talking about a culture-war issue that applies specifically and in depth to my minority group, too, not some opportunity to pontificate on other people's problems.
notsureaboutpg 6y ago
There was a notable increase in Black / Latino votes for Trump in 2020 vs 2016. He actually lost the most ground among white voters.
nailer 6y ago
> "walk away from the left" (which not too many black Americans are doing, BTW) Here's the BBC, a center left news website: > The group that saw the biggest increase in support for Trump compared to 2016, however, was black men. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-54972389 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-54972389 Here's Forbes - check the last 4 elections: https://specials-images.forbesimg.com/imageserve/5fa99cf43b87a5797ccacf81/960x0.jpg?fit=scale https://specials-images.forbesimg.com/imageserve/5fa99cf43b8... from https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2020/11/09/no-trump-didnt-win-the-largest-share-of-non-white-voters-of-any-republican-in-60-years/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2020/11/09/no-tru...
blacktriangle 6y ago
Look at you, you can't even respond to a black American who disagrees with you without telling him how to think, you are the American left.
- kyleblarson 6y ago
  Biden: 'If you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump, then you ain't black' https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/22/politics/biden-charlamagne-tha-god-you-aint-black/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/22/politics/biden-charlamagne-th...
  - blacktriangle 6y ago
    HN: where inconvenient evidence gets downvoted.
- Falling3 6y ago
  At what point did the parent comment say how anyone should think? They presented counterarguments. Is that not allowed?
rayiner 6y ago
> "Wokeism" (and the even more made-up "cancel culture") is the new War on Christmas. Saying that woke excess is "made-up" and "hysteria" is gaslighting. Coca Cola ran a diversity training encouraging employees to "be less white": https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-why-coca-cola-is-being-called-anti-white-after-a-diversity-training-seminar-7204703 https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-why-co.... The Smithsonian has a whole page on "whiteness" treating it like it's a bad thing. If you work a college degree-required job, you've probably had an employer recommend you read something by Robin Di Angelo, who claims she "tries to be a little less white every day." I've never met anyone who got offended when I said "Merry Christmas." I've repeatedly run into instances of woke excess over the past year. The faculty at my law school declared themselves "gatekeepers of white supremacy" on a Zoom call: https://freebeacon.com/campus/northwestern-law-administrators-confess-their-racism-in-online-diversity-session/ https://freebeacon.com/campus/northwestern-law-administrator.... (The interim dean, who declared himself a "racist," is a friend of mine, and I was shocked to read about his behavior.) Even the whole Dr. Seuss thing--"Mulberry Street," which was cancelled, is one of my daughter's favorite books. I bought it for her a couple of years ago new at a Barnes and Noble in Annapolis. It's not some obscure relic of history. I think it's tremendously disingenuous to deny that this phenomenon has crossed the line from "manufactured outrage" into "real concern."
- pron 6y ago
  And I think it is tremendously disingenuous to claim the opposite. The very same attacks on the "excesses" of progressivism, and "if only you'd focus on this instead of that you wouldn't antagonize people" were beat-up clichés at the time of the women's suffrage movement if not abolition. In fact, calling the claim that there is some widespread suppression of speech and reduction in freedom at a time when clearly more people can say more things to wider audiences than ever before, and with the least interference from anyone, mere "disingenuous" is an understatement. It is hysterically delusional.
  - slibhb 6y ago
    Whenever you criticize "progressive excess," some progressive says "well you would have said the same thing about slavery/women's sufferage/integration/etc". This highlights the disagreement perfectly. Progressives view history as "the long march of progress". To progressives, ceasing to publish certain Dr. Seuss books, saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Chistmas," using terms like "latinx" and "BIPOC," announcing your pronouns, denouncing "whiteness," etc are part of the same historical process that ended slavery and passed the Civil Rights Act. I just don't view history that way. I view historical causation and direction as fundamentally mysterious. There are a very large number of plausible interpretations of history and they all seem pretty convincing while being completely contradictory. We should argue over these interpretations, because some of them are better than others, but we shouldn't take any of them as gospel.
disgrunt 6y ago
Between 2016 and 2020 Trump gained six percentage points among black men, and five percentage points among Hispanic women. [0] [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54972389 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54972389
majjgepolja 6y ago
Are they same left though?
dang 6y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26488090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26488090.

by pron 6y ago

prepend 6y ago

> which not too many black Americans are doing, BTW It’s pretty hard to measure such a statement, but I noticed that Trump won 8% of the black vote in 2020 and 6% in 2016. [0] And it seems Romney won 6% in 2012. [1] It’s not smart to extrapolate some trend from these three data points, but I don’t think its accurate to dismiss claims that this isn’t happening. Comically, dismissing the claims of a literal black person walking away from the left speaking of others in vis community is sort of like what the author is saying happens with people patronizing black persons and making decisions for them (eg, “it’s not happening” and “master offends you”). [0] https://www.vox.com/2020/11/4/21537966/trump-black-voters-exit-polls https://www.vox.com/2020/11/4/21537966/trump-black-voters-ex... [1] http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/how-groups-voted-2012 http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/how-groups-voted-2012

pron 6y ago
I am not dismissing any claims, but having a >90% party allegiance based on ethnicity is such an extreme situation, that ascribing reversions to one aspect of the left (which, true enough, the right wants to focus on), is just projection and also an exaggeration. I saw a recent interview with David Shor [1], who said that the conservative/progressive split in the US (based on self-identification, IIRC) is about 60/40 across all ethnicities, but that many vote based on reasons other than ideology. But now we're seeing a trend across the board, where people's votes increasingly align more with ideology. So many conservative blacks vote Democrat, and might be shifting away because of a general emphasis on ideology. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ8UDzUvMg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ8UDzUvMg0
- eli_gottlieb 6y ago
  That actually makes perfect sense of the "walking away" talk, though. It was extreme and unusual in the first place that ardent conservatives would vote for the same political party as socialist activists based solely on race or identity. That was really weird, actually, and an end to that kind of thing is just "reversion to the mean" of people voting for what they actually believe in.
  - pron 6y ago
    Sure, but they were attributing it to a very specific cause rather than general ideological disagreement, not to mention that the number of black people walking away from the Democratic party is not large, certainly compared to the level of support.
pjc50 6y ago
Surely the point is that if you cite one person, you can claim anything? Whether that's of the left or the right. You have to look a little closer to see whether that's a common or a fringe view and among what group of people.
hannofcart 6y ago
I don't consider myself informed enough about this subject to detract from your assertions, but confining myself to the stats you presented, the trend of 6(2012), 6(2016) and 8(2020) seems to bolster the 'status quo' claim, that Black Americans are NOT leaving the left (Dems), rather than undermine it, does it not? I could be missing something here for sure. Like I mentioned am not well versed in American race politics nor in statistics.
- vmception 6y ago
  It does suggest that Also add this to your data collection efforts: 1) A lot of black people don't identify as black on government forms. Whether it is for the census, some voter form I might not be aware of, a vaccine enrollment, or on a standardized test in the private sector. Out of previously substantiated fear of worse treatment or discrimination, but an inability to tell which contexts and future contexts. There won’t be data on this. 2) A lot (maybe most?) of black people don't live in states where their vote really matters for the Presidency or the Senate. Population centers, California, New York. While there is also a cultural pride in leveraging the earned ability to vote (and sustained ability at the individual level, as felons have their rights removed in many states). So there are additional deterrents in wasting it on non-consensus views of that state. 3) The way I saw the data collected about % of black people voting seemed to be based surveys, and not really cross referencing all voter data with the census. Feel free to correct my understanding and I would like to read more about that.
tikiman163 6y ago
These numbers require more context to be meaningful. First, this was for his second term, which typically sees an increase in support. Second, Biden was instrumental in quite a few policies over the years that were generally bad for black Americans, and he was extremely critical of the BLM and police reform (de-fund) movements. Third, the percentage of black Americans which don't live in poverty has increased, and middle class black Americans are more likely to be fiscally conservative for the same reasons that all middle class Americans are more likely to be fiscal conservatives than those who live below the poverty line.
- ta988 6y ago
  The right was also extremely critical of BLM (calling them terrorists) and de-fund. But not all black people defend those anyway. The wealth argument seems much more plausible to me.

DyslexicAtheist 6y ago

> Sure, the left talks about rhetoric, but it also fights for higher wages, civil liberties, healthcare problem with this line is that those in power now in America aren't solving any of these issues. they engage in window dressing and have been doing so since at least Clinton. they are left-INO. What US considers center left actually is right. Unless a new progressive party is formed (AOC, Sanders etc) and this party manages then to become a serious contender and accepted in mainstream, US politics will remain what it is: a farce. edit: Right Marcuseanism - Herbert Marcuse’s “Repressive Tolerance” is often cited as the progenitor of the censorious left, but its real ideological heirs are now on the right: https://outsidertheory.com/right-marcuseanism/ https://outsidertheory.com/right-marcuseanism/ (I shared this yesterday and it's a shame it hasn't gotten more traction considering it goes much deeper into the problem than any (justified) rant on master/slave branches and Tech/github's hypocrisy)

is-ought 6y ago
If we'd believe the slanted tone of the post you're responding to I suppose we should at least take solace in only one of Americas two parties having all the right answers.
halfmatthalfcat 6y ago
The ACA is window dressing? Dodd-Frank and the CPA? DADT Repeal? The Paris Agreement?
- easton 6y ago
  The ACA isn't single-payer healthcare (and didn't really bring down the cost of healthcare much if at all[0]), so I think by the standards of the left in other countries, it is window dressing. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Care_Act#Insurance_costs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Care_Act#Insurance_...
  - halfmatthalfcat 6y ago
    We're not talking about the left in other countries, we're talking about the left in the United States. Within that context, the ACA is a progressive piece of legislation. You can just agree to the point rather than move the goalposts.

dcolkitt 6y ago

> but focusing on it as reasons to "walk away from the left" (which not too many black Americans are doing, BTW) Wasn’t it black moderates that powered centrist Biden to the nomination? Bernie and Warren’s failure to gain any significant traction with the black electorate sunk their progressive candidacies.

pron 6y ago
But that's because many Democrats aren't all that progressive. Being progressive doesn't mean focusing on rhetoric. It mostly means certain views on the economy that many black Democrats disagree with at this time. Sanders in particular isn't considered all that "woke", and still primary voters shifted to Biden.
- matwood 6y ago
  > But that's because many Democrats aren't all that progressive. The people in the US aren't all that progressive.
erezsh 6y ago
Funny, the way I remember it, they forced Sanders out without any voting (and for the second time in a row!)
- TFrancis 6y ago
  Why can't you remember any voting during the primaries?
JansjoFromIkea 6y ago
I'm not sure any data regarding Biden specifically is worth much in terms of future assessment because such a huge amount of it would be tied to Obama's enduring massive popularity amongst all democrat demographics along with being the nostalgic "return to normal" option. There really isn't anywhere to go with that beyond Biden (unless they convince Michelle Obama to run?). Iirc a substantial number of Biden voters had Sanders as their 2nd preference too? The new options they presented flopped pretty badly. It's hard to look at Harris on the basis of her performance in the 2020 primary as being an especially strong frontrunner but it's even harder to think up of any alternatives who will be in strong enough of a position to displace her.

AzzieElbab 6y ago

“ s. Sure, the left talks about rhetoric, but it also fights for higher wages, civil liberties, healthcare, affirmative action, investment in education, workers' rights, and voting rights.” I don’t think the person you are replying to would agree with you about affirmative actions being a good thing. Other than that, the left is super repressive of free speech which is the only civil right left to win , detrimental to wage growth and worker rights by supporting unlimited immigration, bad for education by siding with teachers unions, manipulative when it comes to voting to the point when half of the country does not believe in elections. The right simply does not exist in the institutional level at this point, all they can do is whine about excesses of the left

chriswarbo 6y ago
> the left is... manipulative when it comes to voting to the point when half of the country does not believe in elections I disagree with essentially everything you're saying, but how on Earth can you write that with a straight face? I mean, five seconds on Google gives me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Donald_Trump#2016_Presidential_election_results https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Dona... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Donald_Trump#Voting_by_mail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Dona... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Donald_Trump#2020_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Dona... Many elected Republicans are still lying about the election results. How is that 'the left' being 'manipulative when it comes to voting'? Not to mention the slew of disenfranchisement policies being drawn up by Republicans at the moment. > The right simply does not exist in the institutional level at this point, all they can do is whine about excesses of the left Erm, what "left" are you referring to? US politics is a battle between Pepsi vs Coke https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020 https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020
- tekknik 6y ago
  > Many elected Republicans are still lying about the election results. So we have voter IDs and secure voting? Did you miss the part about lack of confidence in voting? If we don’t have voter IDs how is the right lying? Or are you just trying to reaffirm the narrative?

einpoklum 6y ago

Note that the grandparent post did not talk about the Left, but rather, the "Left". Not the same thing.

is-ought 6y ago

I find this post defensive in tone. At some point America's popular culture will internalize that the wage gap was a myth and etc and appreciate that the left has been peddling pseudoscience for ages in the name of intellectual vanity. Too many generations lost being the lefts rosemary kennedy.

ryanbrunner 6y ago
In what way is the wage gap a myth? You can argue that the wage gap isn't primarily due to absolute discrimination, but that the wage gap exists is an objective fact.
- throwaway53453 6y ago
  The observed differences is due to choices like having babies and choosing different career paths, but for the same job it's objectively illegal to pay female workers less. The feminists argue by taking the average of all wages, and of course women produce less economic value overall when they're still the primary caregiver in most societies.
  - blacktriangle 6y ago
    The real crime is because the value generated by primary caregivers is not in dollars changing hands, and thus not taxable, no government has any interest in honestly measuring that value. The value of a primary caregiver is massive and it's criminal that we as a civlization have demonized women and men who choose to fill that role.
    - throwaway53453 6y ago
      Yup, I totally agree. There's also a good chance this total breakdown in culture is partly a symptom of parenting being demonized.
- dghlsakjg 6y ago
  The ‘myth’ of the wage gap is that it’s an aggregate number. It is sometimes/often presented as women make 73% of the wages of men for doing the same work. It isn’t true for the same work though. When you do apples to apples comparisons of equivalent positions the gap frequently closes to almost nothing. The wage gap is better phrased as ‘women, on average, do jobs that pay only 73% as much as men’. Which, in my opinion, is actually a far worse and harder to solve problem. Paying women the same as their male counterparts is easy. That’s why there isn’t really much of a gap in same profession comparisons. Getting women into more lucrative careers or getting Society to pay more for traditionally women dominated industries is much much harder. To your question: The wage gap ‘myth’ is the misinterpretation of the statistic to say that women are paid much less for the same work.

sokoloff 6y ago

Without exception, all of the most talented individuals I’ve met wanted to be seen and interacted with as individuals. It’s Sally the engineer, not a nameless member of women-in-technology. Or Clinton the engineer, not a recent SWE graduate of an HBCU. Protectionist thinking is off-putting to many when it strays over some imaginary line to where I act as if I must be the champion for an underrepresented group because they think I think they are less capable. When I join with them to help, it’s generally welcome; when an influential person speaks as if that help is charitable (rather than equitable), it puts off some people.

zozbot234 6y ago

> Sure, the left talks about rhetoric, but it also fights for higher wages, civil liberties, healthcare, affirmative action, investment in education, workers' rights, and voting rights. And the right pursues many of these things as well, albeit in very different and sometimes polarizing ways. But we should not pretend that leftist policies are not just as polarizing.

nnvvhh 6y ago
The word "pursue" is doing a hell of a lot of work in your idea of the American right "pursuing voting rights." They're pursuing them like a hunting dog pursues a kill.
SamBam 6y ago
What are some examples of the right (and I mean more than a single lonely senator) fighting for higher wages, healthcare, affirmative action, workers' rights, and voting rights?
- DenisM 6y ago
  Trump’s China tariffs were supposed to increase wages. Trump also pushed down prescription prices, and I believe some sort of price transparency in healthcare. Not sure how well it worked tho. As to worker rights - both sides are equally happy to throw them under the bus.

eli_gottlieb 6y ago

>Saying that the left spends too much effort on rhetoric might be valid criticism, but focusing on it as reasons to "walk away from the left" (which not too many black Americans are doing, BTW) is disingenuous. That depends whether you distinguish between the Left and the Democratic Party. Most minority voters remain firm Democrats, although fewer than in 2016. Many/most minorities I've met, including myself, are completely disenchanted with "the Left" as an activist bloc that tries to take over or derail the Party. That bloc is simply two or three times as strict about "culture war" issues - which I agree with you are ultimately nigh-meaningless, but alas - as about the "kitchen table" issues where most people actually agree with them. In short, you can be a racial or ethnic minority who wants universal healthcare, a new voting rights bill, and to strengthen workers' unions, but then you dissent from the "Left" agenda on one culture-war issue, one that theoretically applies to your group but which you were never consulted about, and bam, the Left hates you and wants you gone. "Everyone get in line, we have to stop Trump" only worked while Trump was in office. It's hard to tell people we all need to get behind whichever street protest is marching downtown now, with Biden in office willingly signing surprisingly progressive bills like the stimulus.

pron 6y ago
> I agree with you are ultimately nigh-meaningless I didn't say they're meaningless. Sadly, I'm one of those noisy, crazy woke, anti-free-speech neo-Marxists, but that doesn't mean I don't care more about minimum wage and healthcare. The culture war is very important to me, but other things are even more important/urgent. > and bam, the Left hates you and wants you gone. Nope. When such large groups are concerned, of course you'll find people who'd want to ostracize you one way or the other, so the choice of what the "Left" is to you is ultimately on you. If that's what you focus on, an aspect of the left that you don't like but which has been a part of it for a hundred years, then you're just looking for excuses.
- eli_gottlieb 6y ago
  >Nope. When such large groups are concerned, of course you'll find people who'd want to ostracize you one way or the other, so the choice of what the "Left" is to you is ultimately on you. If that's what you focus on, an aspect of the left that you don't like but which has been a part of it for a hundred years, then you're just looking for excuses. Funny thing: you're dismissing my case here without even bothering to find out what the object-level example was going to be! You skipped the part where I explicitly specified that I'm talking about a culture-war issue that applies specifically and in depth to my minority group, too, not some opportunity to pontificate on other people's problems.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago

There was a notable increase in Black / Latino votes for Trump in 2020 vs 2016. He actually lost the most ground among white voters.

nailer 6y ago

> "walk away from the left" (which not too many black Americans are doing, BTW) Here's the BBC, a center left news website: > The group that saw the biggest increase in support for Trump compared to 2016, however, was black men. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-54972389 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-54972389 Here's Forbes - check the last 4 elections: https://specials-images.forbesimg.com/imageserve/5fa99cf43b87a5797ccacf81/960x0.jpg?fit=scale https://specials-images.forbesimg.com/imageserve/5fa99cf43b8... from https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2020/11/09/no-trump-didnt-win-the-largest-share-of-non-white-voters-of-any-republican-in-60-years/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2020/11/09/no-tru...

blacktriangle 6y ago

Look at you, you can't even respond to a black American who disagrees with you without telling him how to think, you are the American left.

kyleblarson 6y ago
Biden: 'If you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump, then you ain't black' https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/22/politics/biden-charlamagne-tha-god-you-aint-black/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/22/politics/biden-charlamagne-th...
- blacktriangle 6y ago
  HN: where inconvenient evidence gets downvoted.
Falling3 6y ago
At what point did the parent comment say how anyone should think? They presented counterarguments. Is that not allowed?

rayiner 6y ago

> "Wokeism" (and the even more made-up "cancel culture") is the new War on Christmas. Saying that woke excess is "made-up" and "hysteria" is gaslighting. Coca Cola ran a diversity training encouraging employees to "be less white": https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-why-coca-cola-is-being-called-anti-white-after-a-diversity-training-seminar-7204703 https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-why-co.... The Smithsonian has a whole page on "whiteness" treating it like it's a bad thing. If you work a college degree-required job, you've probably had an employer recommend you read something by Robin Di Angelo, who claims she "tries to be a little less white every day." I've never met anyone who got offended when I said "Merry Christmas." I've repeatedly run into instances of woke excess over the past year. The faculty at my law school declared themselves "gatekeepers of white supremacy" on a Zoom call: https://freebeacon.com/campus/northwestern-law-administrators-confess-their-racism-in-online-diversity-session/ https://freebeacon.com/campus/northwestern-law-administrator.... (The interim dean, who declared himself a "racist," is a friend of mine, and I was shocked to read about his behavior.) Even the whole Dr. Seuss thing--"Mulberry Street," which was cancelled, is one of my daughter's favorite books. I bought it for her a couple of years ago new at a Barnes and Noble in Annapolis. It's not some obscure relic of history. I think it's tremendously disingenuous to deny that this phenomenon has crossed the line from "manufactured outrage" into "real concern."

pron 6y ago
And I think it is tremendously disingenuous to claim the opposite. The very same attacks on the "excesses" of progressivism, and "if only you'd focus on this instead of that you wouldn't antagonize people" were beat-up clichés at the time of the women's suffrage movement if not abolition. In fact, calling the claim that there is some widespread suppression of speech and reduction in freedom at a time when clearly more people can say more things to wider audiences than ever before, and with the least interference from anyone, mere "disingenuous" is an understatement. It is hysterically delusional.
- slibhb 6y ago
  Whenever you criticize "progressive excess," some progressive says "well you would have said the same thing about slavery/women's sufferage/integration/etc". This highlights the disagreement perfectly. Progressives view history as "the long march of progress". To progressives, ceasing to publish certain Dr. Seuss books, saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Chistmas," using terms like "latinx" and "BIPOC," announcing your pronouns, denouncing "whiteness," etc are part of the same historical process that ended slavery and passed the Civil Rights Act. I just don't view history that way. I view historical causation and direction as fundamentally mysterious. There are a very large number of plausible interpretations of history and they all seem pretty convincing while being completely contradictory. We should argue over these interpretations, because some of them are better than others, but we shouldn't take any of them as gospel.

disgrunt 6y ago

Between 2016 and 2020 Trump gained six percentage points among black men, and five percentage points among Hispanic women. [0] [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54972389 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54972389

majjgepolja 6y ago

Are they same left though?

dang 6y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26488090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26488090.