14 ms·

You know that Android is open source and you can just sideload apps, install a 3rd party app store or replace entire OS with your own ROM right? What, your app/

You know that Android is open source and you can just sideload apps, install a 3rd party app store or replace entire OS with your own ROM right? What, your app/game is not valuable enough to the user to bother with unless it's a single click install without having to enter credit card? Well... Basically - Situation is not at all the same as with iOS - There is too much emphasis on friction-less low value installs and less on highly valuable things that users are willing to invest time and money on. Those apps would not survive without vendor-included single click app stores anyway.

onion2k 6y ago
Those apps would not survive without vendor-included single click app stores anyway. I find this a little amusing because it's the exact reason why Microsoft lost their IE anti-trust case. Users were given IE by default, and because using something else required effort IE took a huge chunk of the market remarkably quickly. That was deemed to be violating their effective monopoly position on OSs to influence their position in a different market (browsers). Microsoft were made to add a screen in the Windows on-boarding process that gave users options about which browser they wanted. Sometimes using user 'laziness' to maintain or gain market share doesn't work out so well for you.
- xmprt 6y ago
  I strongly believe that if the Microsoft anti-trust case happened today, Microsoft would easily win. The tech monopolies that we have today have a much bigger impact on society.
  - joering2 6y ago
    Absolutely! First time I loaded Google Search and saw ad under search box, where nobody else can advertise, no matter how much they offer to pay, saying “not using Chrome? Click to install now”, I thought to myself “damn they gonna get huge ant-minopoly lawsuit that will cost then billions”. And what happened?? Nothing! Other than Chrome is number one browser now for decades to come.
- krisgenre 6y ago
  What was really the outcome of Microsoft losing the anti-trust case? Windows still comes with a preinstalled browser and I don't remember ever seeing a version of Windows without one.
  - freddie_mercury 6y ago
    Microsoft didn't lose the anti-trust case. Go check Wikipedia.
    - quelsolaar 6y ago
      They did loose, then they appealed and settled.
      - oblio 6y ago
        Yeah, people should start treating, morally, settling just as losing a case. This doesn't apply for individuals, but companies settling for millions and millions are morally admitting defeat. Corporations can afford the drawn out court battles, so if they're not continuing them, it means that they're admitting they lost.
        leetcrew 6y ago
        no, people should consider settlements on a case-by-case basis depending on the actual terms. entities settle totally unfounded suits all the time just because it's cheaper than taking them to court. just because a giant corporation could afford to doesn't mean settling isn't a rational choice.
        heavyset_go 6y ago
        Settlements are a win because they don't set precedent, and are often much cheaper than going to trial, and much, much cheaper than losing. There are plenty of companies that skirt the law or civil agreements hoping that, in the worst case, they can just settle if they're brought to court.
- Karunamon 6y ago
  Microsoft's mere inclusion of a web browser (which is now a basic OS tool that is reasonably expected to come out of the box, but then was new) wasn't why they lost their case. They lost their case because they were demanding OEMs refuse to include any alternative browsers on pain of revoking their pricing agreements.
m463 6y ago
It is worthwhile to read the google anti-trust complaint: https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1328941/download https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1328941/downl... It's clearly written, a short read and gets interesting each subsequent page. The android stuff begins on page 19.
cute_boi 6y ago
this opensource thing is not so straight as you have explained. In Android these days I find lot of finance app using some proprietarytechnology like google safety net. And most app are using google play services which again is closed source. Android is not true opensource software ...
- bdcravens 6y ago
  Snaps in Ubuntu also has proprietary components.
  - e3bc54b2 6y ago
    And many on HN have reservations against snap for that and more.
  - andrewshadura 6y ago
    Yes, the store. And advanced functionality is only available to paying users.
    - curt15 6y ago
      "Advanced functionality" such as the ability to take full control of when apps get updated.
dleslie 6y ago
Many, _many_ Android phones cannot work with any known custom ROM. Where's a custom rom for my Blackberry Priv, for instance?
im3w1l 6y ago
A third party app store can not automaticly apply updates to apps. The user has to explictly approve every update. This puts the play store in a privileged position of lower ongoing friction.
- modeless 6y ago
  There was a recent Android blog post that said "we will be making changes in Android 12 (next year's Android release) to make it even easier for people to use other app stores on their devices". https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2020/09/listening-to-developer-feedback-to.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2020/09/listening-...
  - square_usual 6y ago
    It will be ages before Android 12 is on a plurality of devices, not even a majority.
    - valvar 6y ago
      That's assuming the feature even materializes. I don't it's cynical to assume that Google might shelve a "feature" that undermines their own business at the first opportunity.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    90% of future Android 12 users will only get it when their phone dies and they buy a new one.
    - oblio 6y ago
      It's actually getting better. New versions of Android are getting adopted faster: https://www.gsmarena.com/report_android_11_has_the_fastest_adoption_rate_in_the_us-news-48125.php https://www.gsmarena.com/report_android_11_has_the_fastest_a... It's not yet at iOS levels, but Google is actually getting there, I'm impressed. It's much easier to pull this off when you're a huge company making the hardware and the software and you can just boss OEMs and telecom companies around, it's much harder when you have a Microsoft Windows-like arrangement. They're still at least 5 years from getting near iOS, but still... progress! :-)
guytv 6y ago
> You know that Android is open source... Technically Android is OpenSource. De-facto - its not. For many many years now Google is adding all non-os functionality into "support" libraries, "Google Services" - the name changes periodically - but the essence is the same: Making sure that any Android that is not "Google certified" won't be able to run Android apps - which all use these libraries - and won't have apps such as YouTube, Gmail, Photos come pre-installed..
- londons_explore 6y ago
  But there is an opensource implementation of those support services (microg) which work for most apps.
  - guytv 6y ago
    oh, nice. I didn't know about it. It is a huge undertaking, google has services from "simple" things like location, to complex things like face recognition.
    - londons_explore 6y ago
      I believe many of the microg services are mocked out in a way that makes apps 'work', but complex things like step counting in Google fit or face recognition will always return some bogus results. Still, it makes 99% of apps work.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    Except the drivers are always closed, so you cannot run any OS that you like or have long-term support.
otabdeveloper4 6y ago
> or replace entire OS with your own ROM right For over 90% (rough guess) of devices this isn't true. ARM isn't an open platform like Intel/PC.
heavyset_go 6y ago
> You know that Android is open source and you can just sideload apps, install a 3rd party app store or replace entire OS with your own ROM right? User installable 3rd party app stores are cannot compete with the Play Store on feature parity because 3rd party app stores cannot implement automatic upgrades, background installation of apps, or batch installs of apps like the Play Store can. Manufacturers fight against users' abilities to root or replace their OS on the phones they sell. There are thousands of models of phones that will only ever run their OEM installed ROMs, and there are millions, if not billions, of Android devices that cannot be rooted or won't run custom ROMs, and more are produced every year.

onion2k 6y ago

Those apps would not survive without vendor-included single click app stores anyway. I find this a little amusing because it's the exact reason why Microsoft lost their IE anti-trust case. Users were given IE by default, and because using something else required effort IE took a huge chunk of the market remarkably quickly. That was deemed to be violating their effective monopoly position on OSs to influence their position in a different market (browsers). Microsoft were made to add a screen in the Windows on-boarding process that gave users options about which browser they wanted. Sometimes using user 'laziness' to maintain or gain market share doesn't work out so well for you.

xmprt 6y ago
I strongly believe that if the Microsoft anti-trust case happened today, Microsoft would easily win. The tech monopolies that we have today have a much bigger impact on society.
- joering2 6y ago
  Absolutely! First time I loaded Google Search and saw ad under search box, where nobody else can advertise, no matter how much they offer to pay, saying “not using Chrome? Click to install now”, I thought to myself “damn they gonna get huge ant-minopoly lawsuit that will cost then billions”. And what happened?? Nothing! Other than Chrome is number one browser now for decades to come.
krisgenre 6y ago
What was really the outcome of Microsoft losing the anti-trust case? Windows still comes with a preinstalled browser and I don't remember ever seeing a version of Windows without one.
- freddie_mercury 6y ago
  Microsoft didn't lose the anti-trust case. Go check Wikipedia.
  - quelsolaar 6y ago
    They did loose, then they appealed and settled.
    - oblio 6y ago
      Yeah, people should start treating, morally, settling just as losing a case. This doesn't apply for individuals, but companies settling for millions and millions are morally admitting defeat. Corporations can afford the drawn out court battles, so if they're not continuing them, it means that they're admitting they lost.
      - leetcrew 6y ago
        no, people should consider settlements on a case-by-case basis depending on the actual terms. entities settle totally unfounded suits all the time just because it's cheaper than taking them to court. just because a giant corporation could afford to doesn't mean settling isn't a rational choice.
      - heavyset_go 6y ago
        Settlements are a win because they don't set precedent, and are often much cheaper than going to trial, and much, much cheaper than losing. There are plenty of companies that skirt the law or civil agreements hoping that, in the worst case, they can just settle if they're brought to court.
Karunamon 6y ago
Microsoft's mere inclusion of a web browser (which is now a basic OS tool that is reasonably expected to come out of the box, but then was new) wasn't why they lost their case. They lost their case because they were demanding OEMs refuse to include any alternative browsers on pain of revoking their pricing agreements.

m463 6y ago

It is worthwhile to read the google anti-trust complaint: https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1328941/download https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1328941/downl... It's clearly written, a short read and gets interesting each subsequent page. The android stuff begins on page 19.

cute_boi 6y ago

this opensource thing is not so straight as you have explained. In Android these days I find lot of finance app using some proprietarytechnology like google safety net. And most app are using google play services which again is closed source. Android is not true opensource software ...

bdcravens 6y ago
Snaps in Ubuntu also has proprietary components.
- e3bc54b2 6y ago
  And many on HN have reservations against snap for that and more.
- andrewshadura 6y ago
  Yes, the store. And advanced functionality is only available to paying users.
  - curt15 6y ago
    "Advanced functionality" such as the ability to take full control of when apps get updated.

dleslie 6y ago

Many, _many_ Android phones cannot work with any known custom ROM. Where's a custom rom for my Blackberry Priv, for instance?

im3w1l 6y ago

A third party app store can not automaticly apply updates to apps. The user has to explictly approve every update. This puts the play store in a privileged position of lower ongoing friction.

modeless 6y ago
There was a recent Android blog post that said "we will be making changes in Android 12 (next year's Android release) to make it even easier for people to use other app stores on their devices". https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2020/09/listening-to-developer-feedback-to.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2020/09/listening-...
- square_usual 6y ago
  It will be ages before Android 12 is on a plurality of devices, not even a majority.
  - valvar 6y ago
    That's assuming the feature even materializes. I don't it's cynical to assume that Google might shelve a "feature" that undermines their own business at the first opportunity.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  90% of future Android 12 users will only get it when their phone dies and they buy a new one.
  - oblio 6y ago
    It's actually getting better. New versions of Android are getting adopted faster: https://www.gsmarena.com/report_android_11_has_the_fastest_adoption_rate_in_the_us-news-48125.php https://www.gsmarena.com/report_android_11_has_the_fastest_a... It's not yet at iOS levels, but Google is actually getting there, I'm impressed. It's much easier to pull this off when you're a huge company making the hardware and the software and you can just boss OEMs and telecom companies around, it's much harder when you have a Microsoft Windows-like arrangement. They're still at least 5 years from getting near iOS, but still... progress! :-)

guytv 6y ago

> You know that Android is open source... Technically Android is OpenSource. De-facto - its not. For many many years now Google is adding all non-os functionality into "support" libraries, "Google Services" - the name changes periodically - but the essence is the same: Making sure that any Android that is not "Google certified" won't be able to run Android apps - which all use these libraries - and won't have apps such as YouTube, Gmail, Photos come pre-installed..

londons_explore 6y ago
But there is an opensource implementation of those support services (microg) which work for most apps.
- guytv 6y ago
  oh, nice. I didn't know about it. It is a huge undertaking, google has services from "simple" things like location, to complex things like face recognition.
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    I believe many of the microg services are mocked out in a way that makes apps 'work', but complex things like step counting in Google fit or face recognition will always return some bogus results. Still, it makes 99% of apps work.
- fsflover 6y ago
  Except the drivers are always closed, so you cannot run any OS that you like or have long-term support.

otabdeveloper4 6y ago

> or replace entire OS with your own ROM right For over 90% (rough guess) of devices this isn't true. ARM isn't an open platform like Intel/PC.

heavyset_go 6y ago

> You know that Android is open source and you can just sideload apps, install a 3rd party app store or replace entire OS with your own ROM right? User installable 3rd party app stores are cannot compete with the Play Store on feature parity because 3rd party app stores cannot implement automatic upgrades, background installation of apps, or batch installs of apps like the Play Store can. Manufacturers fight against users' abilities to root or replace their OS on the phones they sell. There are thousands of models of phones that will only ever run their OEM installed ROMs, and there are millions, if not billions, of Android devices that cannot be rooted or won't run custom ROMs, and more are produced every year.