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I don’t get the fuss with the pledge of alliance (non American here). > "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic fo

by jiofih 6y ago

I don’t get the fuss with the pledge of alliance (non American here). > "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Why is it bad to declare your commitment to the country you’re born in and it’s values? It’s not like you can’t leave (except for the IRS) if you don’t like it.

TomSwirly 6y ago
> Why is it bad to declare your commitment to the country you’re born in and it’s values? Why should a child be forced to do that? What if you just don't agree with the values? > It’s not like you can’t leave (except for the IRS) if you don’t like it. For most people, it is exactly that you cannot leave.
orf 6y ago
Borderline indoctrination. You're not pledging commitment to it's "values" and young children are not at an age to have a nuanced discussion or awareness about what those exactly those values are, and make a decision about if they should be declaring a commitment to them or not.
- jiofih 6y ago
  Should everyone wait until their kids turn 18 to start teaching them their own morals and values? You’d just be auctioning their brain to random others who are willing to do that. I think we either have very different concepts of what indoctrination is, or there is much more beyond the pledge itself, and that is where the real issues are?
  - stickfigure 6y ago
    I believe you missed the parent's point. The Pledge of Allegiance is pretty thin on values, other than "liberty and justice for all" crammed in at the end like an afterthought. Mostly it's "my country and religion, right or wrong".
    - jiofih 6y ago
      I don’t see how it reads as an unconditional commitment. It implies that the values of your country are “right” to your (parents) eyes.
  - orf 6y ago
    > Should everyone wait until their kids turn 18 to start teaching them their own morals and values? You keep saying morals and values. Which part of the pledge pertains to morals and values? It was still said during a time of complete racial segregation. Did the practically unchanged pledge teach children about the morality and values of that? Or domestic internment camps during WW2? What about during the Vietnam war? What deeper nuanced meaning am I missing where it balances "freedom and liberty for all" with the massive expansion of the post-9/11 surveilance state? It's got nothing to do with morals or "values". Perhaps we should just say "if you feel so strongly about your country at the age of 15 that you want to recite a prayer to it every morning then you can in your own time".
    - Rule35 6y ago
      > Which part of the pledge pertains to morals and values? Pledging allegiance to the things that protect and serve you. Support for something larger than yourself. The American ideals in the constitution and on the statue of liberty, even if you don't feel others support them as much as they should. The USA is a tremendous country that has done more to build protections for people into its law than almost anywhere else. You should see this and support it even if there are problems. America pledges equality and it's actually available. There's a reason the entirely of South America would move to the USA today, and it's a flattering reason if you'd look at it. > It was still said during a time of complete racial segregation. No, that never happened. Even during slavery, only some states practiced it and it was distasteful elsewhere, and even in those states it wasn't universal. Small help to a slave, sure, but your representation isn't fair. > Did the practically unchanged pledge teach children about the morality and values of that? Of the country that fought a hard war to end slavery, and is trying for equality? I dunno, you don't seem to have heard that message. > Or domestic internment camps during WW2? Meh, war is tough. When you're shooting some people it seems less bad to merely imprison some. Find a solution for the war itself and then let's talk about the imprisonment which were practiced to prevent more killing. Also, Canada did worse in its internments. More theft from the victims, and even worse scapegoating. > What about during the Vietnam war? What about? It was a badly chosen war that was guaranteed to go past the initial semi-principled stand into a huge quagmire of a proxy war. Dumb idea and bad. But are mistakes forever damning? > What deeper nuanced meaning am I missing where it balances "freedom and liberty for all" with the massive expansion of the post-9/11 surveilance state? So, like the Vietnam war, it's a mistake. But fight to save what you've got rather than equating it to the worst dictatorships. It's also a forgivable thing though, to overreact to murder. It took the UK and Ireland a long time to trust each other after the troubles. You should be proud to be American. Your country at least tries to right wrongs.
- Rule35 6y ago
  It's not binding so it's not that big of a deal.
markdown 6y ago
> Why is it bad to declare your commitment to the country you’re born in and it’s values? It's just indoctrination. I mean, commitment to your country is implied. Do you stand up, put hand on heart and pledge allegiance to your family? Your church? Your friends? Why would you do that for your country? It's nationalistic nonsense that has no place in a modern, democratic society.
- Rule35 6y ago
  > Do you stand up, put hand on heart and pledge allegiance to your family? Your church? Your friends? I didn't pick the marriage ceremony my culture used. If it involved a hand over your heart I wouldn't have worried about it. > Why would you do that for your country? That specific gesture aside, perhaps because I cared about the ideals it represents and the words in the affirmation. > It's nationalistic nonsense that has no place in a modern, democratic society. No. Without some sort of bond to those around me why would I respect their views enough to allow a democracy? It's because we share some goals and ideals. If I thought you hated the things I loved about my country I might see you as an enemy, and vice versa, but if we see that we share our dreams we can survive not sharing any other opinions.
Aeolun 6y ago
> Why is it bad to declare your commitment to the country you’re born in and it’s values? Why would you declare commitment to a country just based on the fact that you were born there? Say you were born in North Korea, would you still do it? I dunno, I’d rather declare my commitment to a country that actually deserves it.
lmm 6y ago
When you're a child you can't realistically leave, and the pledge sounds rather like a promise to never do so. The people making those pledges have very little idea what values they're signing up to. It has the same vibe as chastity pledges, made by kids who don't know what they're talking about at the urging of their parents.
- jiofih 6y ago
  > sounds rather like a promise to never do so I just quoted the entire pledge and there is no semblance of that. Interesting how every reply has a different, deep interpretation of it. There must be some cultural context that is not possible to get from the outside.
  - lmm 6y ago
    > I just quoted the entire pledge and there is no semblance of that. What does "allegiance" mean to you? I looked it up in a dictionary and saw it described as essentially "commitment".

by jiofih 6y ago

TomSwirly 6y ago

> Why is it bad to declare your commitment to the country you’re born in and it’s values? Why should a child be forced to do that? What if you just don't agree with the values? > It’s not like you can’t leave (except for the IRS) if you don’t like it. For most people, it is exactly that you cannot leave.

orf 6y ago

Borderline indoctrination. You're not pledging commitment to it's "values" and young children are not at an age to have a nuanced discussion or awareness about what those exactly those values are, and make a decision about if they should be declaring a commitment to them or not.

jiofih 6y ago
Should everyone wait until their kids turn 18 to start teaching them their own morals and values? You’d just be auctioning their brain to random others who are willing to do that. I think we either have very different concepts of what indoctrination is, or there is much more beyond the pledge itself, and that is where the real issues are?
- stickfigure 6y ago
  I believe you missed the parent's point. The Pledge of Allegiance is pretty thin on values, other than "liberty and justice for all" crammed in at the end like an afterthought. Mostly it's "my country and religion, right or wrong".
  - jiofih 6y ago
    I don’t see how it reads as an unconditional commitment. It implies that the values of your country are “right” to your (parents) eyes.
- orf 6y ago
  > Should everyone wait until their kids turn 18 to start teaching them their own morals and values? You keep saying morals and values. Which part of the pledge pertains to morals and values? It was still said during a time of complete racial segregation. Did the practically unchanged pledge teach children about the morality and values of that? Or domestic internment camps during WW2? What about during the Vietnam war? What deeper nuanced meaning am I missing where it balances "freedom and liberty for all" with the massive expansion of the post-9/11 surveilance state? It's got nothing to do with morals or "values". Perhaps we should just say "if you feel so strongly about your country at the age of 15 that you want to recite a prayer to it every morning then you can in your own time".
  - Rule35 6y ago
    > Which part of the pledge pertains to morals and values? Pledging allegiance to the things that protect and serve you. Support for something larger than yourself. The American ideals in the constitution and on the statue of liberty, even if you don't feel others support them as much as they should. The USA is a tremendous country that has done more to build protections for people into its law than almost anywhere else. You should see this and support it even if there are problems. America pledges equality and it's actually available. There's a reason the entirely of South America would move to the USA today, and it's a flattering reason if you'd look at it. > It was still said during a time of complete racial segregation. No, that never happened. Even during slavery, only some states practiced it and it was distasteful elsewhere, and even in those states it wasn't universal. Small help to a slave, sure, but your representation isn't fair. > Did the practically unchanged pledge teach children about the morality and values of that? Of the country that fought a hard war to end slavery, and is trying for equality? I dunno, you don't seem to have heard that message. > Or domestic internment camps during WW2? Meh, war is tough. When you're shooting some people it seems less bad to merely imprison some. Find a solution for the war itself and then let's talk about the imprisonment which were practiced to prevent more killing. Also, Canada did worse in its internments. More theft from the victims, and even worse scapegoating. > What about during the Vietnam war? What about? It was a badly chosen war that was guaranteed to go past the initial semi-principled stand into a huge quagmire of a proxy war. Dumb idea and bad. But are mistakes forever damning? > What deeper nuanced meaning am I missing where it balances "freedom and liberty for all" with the massive expansion of the post-9/11 surveilance state? So, like the Vietnam war, it's a mistake. But fight to save what you've got rather than equating it to the worst dictatorships. It's also a forgivable thing though, to overreact to murder. It took the UK and Ireland a long time to trust each other after the troubles. You should be proud to be American. Your country at least tries to right wrongs.
Rule35 6y ago
It's not binding so it's not that big of a deal.

markdown 6y ago

> Why is it bad to declare your commitment to the country you’re born in and it’s values? It's just indoctrination. I mean, commitment to your country is implied. Do you stand up, put hand on heart and pledge allegiance to your family? Your church? Your friends? Why would you do that for your country? It's nationalistic nonsense that has no place in a modern, democratic society.

Rule35 6y ago
> Do you stand up, put hand on heart and pledge allegiance to your family? Your church? Your friends? I didn't pick the marriage ceremony my culture used. If it involved a hand over your heart I wouldn't have worried about it. > Why would you do that for your country? That specific gesture aside, perhaps because I cared about the ideals it represents and the words in the affirmation. > It's nationalistic nonsense that has no place in a modern, democratic society. No. Without some sort of bond to those around me why would I respect their views enough to allow a democracy? It's because we share some goals and ideals. If I thought you hated the things I loved about my country I might see you as an enemy, and vice versa, but if we see that we share our dreams we can survive not sharing any other opinions.

Aeolun 6y ago

> Why is it bad to declare your commitment to the country you’re born in and it’s values? Why would you declare commitment to a country just based on the fact that you were born there? Say you were born in North Korea, would you still do it? I dunno, I’d rather declare my commitment to a country that actually deserves it.

lmm 6y ago

When you're a child you can't realistically leave, and the pledge sounds rather like a promise to never do so. The people making those pledges have very little idea what values they're signing up to. It has the same vibe as chastity pledges, made by kids who don't know what they're talking about at the urging of their parents.

jiofih 6y ago
> sounds rather like a promise to never do so I just quoted the entire pledge and there is no semblance of that. Interesting how every reply has a different, deep interpretation of it. There must be some cultural context that is not possible to get from the outside.
- lmm 6y ago
  > I just quoted the entire pledge and there is no semblance of that. What does "allegiance" mean to you? I looked it up in a dictionary and saw it described as essentially "commitment".