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> democracy can become antagonistic as people seek to vote money away from each other. ... > We should therefore focus on taxing capital rather than labor I

by csomar 6y ago

> democracy can become antagonistic as people seek to vote money away from each other. ... > We should therefore focus on taxing capital rather than labor I find it amazing that these "thinkers" don't see the irony. You are "afraid" that people are going to vote you away from your wealth via democracy; but then you feel privileged to decide how this wealth should be taxed. Since AIs are getting smarter than humans, maybe we should let them decide? > and AI teachers that can diagnose and explain exactly what a student doesn’t understand. Since AIs are smarter than humans, why bother teaching humans at all? Unless there is a point where a developed human brain could outsmart the AI, it seems to be a waste and emotionally guided. > We could do something called the American Equity Fund. Any solution that is not universal is bound the fail. These companies can move overseas to cut their tax bill. It also easier than moving now since all they need to move is data; electronics being already made in Asia. The reality is, there is no place for humans in an AI driven world where AI is smarter than humans and robots can make stuff. Realizing that is the first step to move forward in this new world.

chishaku 6y ago
> emotionally guided > move forward What do you mean by these phrases? Can you elaborate on your framework for value?
- csomar 6y ago
  > emotionally guided As humans, we emotionally feel sympathy toward other animals of the human race. Bonus points if they look similar (ethnically). > move forward Without honestly realizing what an AI driven world means, any "solution" is just vaporware talks, and will probably mean we are not ready when the shift happens.
core-questions 6y ago
> The reality is, there is no place for humans in an AI driven world where AI is smarter than humans and robots can make stuff. Luckily, that's a hell of a lot further away than AI bulls indicate. Can't even use AI to help with hiring people without it getting cancelled as racist, after all.
tempestn 6y ago
If you want to follow that chain of logic, then the thing to do would be to either find a way to prove that a sufficiently AI would be conscious, or to augment human consciousness with AI. Because even if AI's are superior to humans at everything, if they're not self-aware, you still need humans or other conscious animals for anything to have a point - you need someone to experience the stuff that exist. And humans aren't built to be happy existing simply as consumers, so if humans are going to be those experiencers, they need to be involved in creation, not just consumption.
naringas 6y ago
> Since AIs are smarter than humans, why bother teaching humans at all? Unless there is a point where a developed human brain could outsmart the AI, it seems to be a waste and emotionally guided. taking this point and running off with it. why bother having humans at all? let's all become a simulation and live within a computer.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  But, by your exact same logic: Why bother having humans even within the simulation? An AI will out-perform them there as well. I suggest that the original logic was flawed...
- colinmhayes 6y ago
  That's the goal. Infinite jest.
stevenhuang 6y ago
> The reality is, there is no place for humans in an AI driven world where AI is smarter than humans and robots can make stuff. You need to read more sci-fi. The Culture series by Ian Banks is a good start. Of course there is dystopic fiction too, but the point is there are many possibilities of what life post-ai may look like Nothing says it has to work out the way you think so stating that so confidently is unwarranted.
- ALittleLight 6y ago
  But in The Culture series humans have no meaningful role and everything that humans can do machines can do better. Some extreme edge cases may apply to very specific things, but even then, it's one or two individual humans being useful contributors out of countless trillions. I agree that The Culture is the science fiction future to aspire to - but the place for humans in The Culture is just enjoying how good society is once machines and AI do everything for you. Importantly, the AI's of The Culture like humans and want to promote human flourishing. If human+ level AGI is achieved then I think it does have to work out the way the parent is stating. There will be no useful role for the vast majority of humans. Humans are intelligence plus the physical capabilities of our bodies. Machines can already exceed our physical capabilities in most things, and if artificial intelligence exceeds ours - what will be left for humans?
  - stevenhuang 6y ago
    If that was the point parent was making then I agree as well, there would indeed be no useful role for humanity. > Importantly, the AI's of The Culture like humans and want to promote human flourishing Yes, perhaps this was what I wanted to highlight, that even if we are to end up in such a situation, it could be beneficial.
visarga 6y ago
> Since AIs are smarter than humans, why bother teaching humans at all? Just give humans cell phones and social accounts, and let them eat fake news all day. Problem solved. But the flip side is that creatives and inventors will be empowered to achieve more.
csbartus 6y ago
> Realizing that is the first step to move forward in this new world. Right, we've become disposable. Up until the computer era we were part of the equation. We went to war, to vote, and we paid taxes - making ourselves useful for state and capital. Now, they don't need us anymore. We are a burden for the state (universal basic income) and capital plays its own game (high frequency trading). Samuel Butler was right in Erewhon (1872): "Advertising is the way we grant power to the machine" AI is powered by advertising, by the data we voluntarily feed into the machine. For the false reward of shining the ego. Yes, we must admit, as a specie we are highly disappointing. Instead of lifting ourselves we've created a monster above us.
- Simon321 6y ago
  We can still vote, so they still need us. With the time freed up by AI we can become more informed voters.
  - morlockabove 6y ago
    You mean spend more time screaming at the other side on twitter, egged on by GPT-13?
mbesto 6y ago
> Since AIs are smarter than humans, why bother teaching humans at all? Unless there is a point where a developed human brain could outsmart the AI, it seems to be a waste and emotionally guided. The obscurity for the definition of AI is precisely what drives this. The term AI is so vague among tech circles that I find the term basically laughable at this point. If we're talking about sentient AI, then none of these concepts matter. We'll have WAY more interesting problems to deal with.
- ExtraE 6y ago
  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tcdVC4e6EV4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tcdVC4e6EV4
imtringued 6y ago
I have decided to replace AI (and robots) with Orcs in your comment. > We should therefore focus on taxing capital rather than labor I find it amazing that these "thinkers" don't see the irony. You are "afraid" that people are going to vote you away from your wealth via democracy; but then you feel privileged to decide how this wealth should be taxed. Since Orcs are getting smarter than humans, maybe we should let them decide? > and Orc teachers that can diagnose and explain exactly what a student doesn’t understand. Since Orcs are smarter than humans, why bother teaching humans at all? Unless there is a point where a developed human brain could outsmart the Orcs, it seems to be a waste and emotionally guided. > We could do something called the American Equity Fund. Any solution that is not universal is bound the fail. These companies can move overseas to cut their tax bill. It also easier than moving now since all they need to move is data; electronics being already made in Asia. The reality is, there is no place for humans in an Orc driven world where Orcs are smarter than humans and Orcs can make stuff. Realizing that is the first step to move forward in this new world. Now try replacing humans with your nationality (e.g. Americans) and Orcs with people of a different nationality from yours to get even closer to reality.

by csomar 6y ago

chishaku 6y ago

> emotionally guided > move forward What do you mean by these phrases? Can you elaborate on your framework for value?

csomar 6y ago
> emotionally guided As humans, we emotionally feel sympathy toward other animals of the human race. Bonus points if they look similar (ethnically). > move forward Without honestly realizing what an AI driven world means, any "solution" is just vaporware talks, and will probably mean we are not ready when the shift happens.

core-questions 6y ago

> The reality is, there is no place for humans in an AI driven world where AI is smarter than humans and robots can make stuff. Luckily, that's a hell of a lot further away than AI bulls indicate. Can't even use AI to help with hiring people without it getting cancelled as racist, after all.

tempestn 6y ago

If you want to follow that chain of logic, then the thing to do would be to either find a way to prove that a sufficiently AI would be conscious, or to augment human consciousness with AI. Because even if AI's are superior to humans at everything, if they're not self-aware, you still need humans or other conscious animals for anything to have a point - you need someone to experience the stuff that exist. And humans aren't built to be happy existing simply as consumers, so if humans are going to be those experiencers, they need to be involved in creation, not just consumption.

naringas 6y ago

> Since AIs are smarter than humans, why bother teaching humans at all? Unless there is a point where a developed human brain could outsmart the AI, it seems to be a waste and emotionally guided. taking this point and running off with it. why bother having humans at all? let's all become a simulation and live within a computer.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
But, by your exact same logic: Why bother having humans even within the simulation? An AI will out-perform them there as well. I suggest that the original logic was flawed...
colinmhayes 6y ago
That's the goal. Infinite jest.

stevenhuang 6y ago

> The reality is, there is no place for humans in an AI driven world where AI is smarter than humans and robots can make stuff. You need to read more sci-fi. The Culture series by Ian Banks is a good start. Of course there is dystopic fiction too, but the point is there are many possibilities of what life post-ai may look like Nothing says it has to work out the way you think so stating that so confidently is unwarranted.

ALittleLight 6y ago
But in The Culture series humans have no meaningful role and everything that humans can do machines can do better. Some extreme edge cases may apply to very specific things, but even then, it's one or two individual humans being useful contributors out of countless trillions. I agree that The Culture is the science fiction future to aspire to - but the place for humans in The Culture is just enjoying how good society is once machines and AI do everything for you. Importantly, the AI's of The Culture like humans and want to promote human flourishing. If human+ level AGI is achieved then I think it does have to work out the way the parent is stating. There will be no useful role for the vast majority of humans. Humans are intelligence plus the physical capabilities of our bodies. Machines can already exceed our physical capabilities in most things, and if artificial intelligence exceeds ours - what will be left for humans?
- stevenhuang 6y ago
  If that was the point parent was making then I agree as well, there would indeed be no useful role for humanity. > Importantly, the AI's of The Culture like humans and want to promote human flourishing Yes, perhaps this was what I wanted to highlight, that even if we are to end up in such a situation, it could be beneficial.

visarga 6y ago

> Since AIs are smarter than humans, why bother teaching humans at all? Just give humans cell phones and social accounts, and let them eat fake news all day. Problem solved. But the flip side is that creatives and inventors will be empowered to achieve more.

csbartus 6y ago

> Realizing that is the first step to move forward in this new world. Right, we've become disposable. Up until the computer era we were part of the equation. We went to war, to vote, and we paid taxes - making ourselves useful for state and capital. Now, they don't need us anymore. We are a burden for the state (universal basic income) and capital plays its own game (high frequency trading). Samuel Butler was right in Erewhon (1872): "Advertising is the way we grant power to the machine" AI is powered by advertising, by the data we voluntarily feed into the machine. For the false reward of shining the ego. Yes, we must admit, as a specie we are highly disappointing. Instead of lifting ourselves we've created a monster above us.

Simon321 6y ago
We can still vote, so they still need us. With the time freed up by AI we can become more informed voters.
- morlockabove 6y ago
  You mean spend more time screaming at the other side on twitter, egged on by GPT-13?

mbesto 6y ago

> Since AIs are smarter than humans, why bother teaching humans at all? Unless there is a point where a developed human brain could outsmart the AI, it seems to be a waste and emotionally guided. The obscurity for the definition of AI is precisely what drives this. The term AI is so vague among tech circles that I find the term basically laughable at this point. If we're talking about sentient AI, then none of these concepts matter. We'll have WAY more interesting problems to deal with.

ExtraE 6y ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tcdVC4e6EV4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tcdVC4e6EV4

imtringued 6y ago

I have decided to replace AI (and robots) with Orcs in your comment. > We should therefore focus on taxing capital rather than labor I find it amazing that these "thinkers" don't see the irony. You are "afraid" that people are going to vote you away from your wealth via democracy; but then you feel privileged to decide how this wealth should be taxed. Since Orcs are getting smarter than humans, maybe we should let them decide? > and Orc teachers that can diagnose and explain exactly what a student doesn’t understand. Since Orcs are smarter than humans, why bother teaching humans at all? Unless there is a point where a developed human brain could outsmart the Orcs, it seems to be a waste and emotionally guided. > We could do something called the American Equity Fund. Any solution that is not universal is bound the fail. These companies can move overseas to cut their tax bill. It also easier than moving now since all they need to move is data; electronics being already made in Asia. The reality is, there is no place for humans in an Orc driven world where Orcs are smarter than humans and Orcs can make stuff. Realizing that is the first step to move forward in this new world. Now try replacing humans with your nationality (e.g. Americans) and Orcs with people of a different nationality from yours to get even closer to reality.