8 ms·

I don't understand why many of these workstation-class laptops have num. pads. It is so annoying to type with your hands off-center from the screen.

echelon 6y ago
They're optimizing for the professional accounting Olympics use case.
tastyfreeze 6y ago
I don't understand why many workstation-class laptops DONT have a num pads. It is so annoying to have to type long sequences of digits without one.
- echelon 6y ago
  Do numbers constitute even 5% of your keyboard usage time?
  - urthor 6y ago
    Excel users yes.
  - i80and 6y ago
    Depends on what you're doing: any kind of 3D work requires a numpad to be effective, since that's typically where camera controls are bound in every workflow I've seen.
    - spijdar 6y ago
      I'll say I personally can't use numpads, and they're total wasted space for me, so I try to avoid them on my keyboards and laptops, especially because they put the keyboard off-center on said laptops. However, I think there are use cases and people who prefer using them. Some software is really geared around the full cluster being there. I've got a full size, numpad-ed keyboard (some old stock DEC thing that went to a mid 90s alphastation I believe, I got it for dirt cheap) attached to my "windows gaming machine", and I use the numpad on a few shortcut-heavy games. Otherwise, though, I just don't have any muscle memory for it. I have to look and hunt/peck for keys on a numpad. I'm mostly using bash and vim for work, though...
      - detritus 6y ago
        I did work experience for a week for my IT course when I was about 15 in the offices of a petroleum-selling company. I spent a day or two in the accounts department absolutely amazed by the ~50 year old lady who was showing me how she input numeral data into the old green-screen workstation, fingers flying over the numpad inputting quantities and prices. As someone who even then felt I was 'good' with computers, I was stunned and thought I'd never get to that level. Now I feel crippled whenever I'm on my laptop, which doesn't have a numpad, my own fingers flailing uselessly over numbers that whilst in mind are not available to my right hand. I should probably get one of those external numpad USB things, but I much prefer a whinge.
    - lumenwrites 6y ago
      This only applies to Blender. No other 3D software that I know of requires numpad hotkeys. I've been using Maya/Houdini/zBrush for years, never touched the numpad, that feels too awkward. If numpad keybindings in these apps do exist - I never knew about them, never needed to, never will. (because left hand is on the keyboard, and right hand is on the mouse or stylus, and putting down the mouse to reach for a numpad is just weird.) Doing it with the laptop would be even worse, I imagine.
      - krsdcbl 6y ago
        Same goes for Cinema4D, wouldn't know of any numpad shortcuts
  - coldtea 6y ago
    To some professions, they do. This includes a surprising variety, from accountants and POS, to 3D modelling artists...
  - detritus 6y ago
    Outside of typing out emails or schpiels, yes. If I discount Ctrl, Alt & Shift - probably significantly more than 5%.
- gmac 6y ago
  Perhaps because you can buy a separate numpad if you want one, and then have the best of both worlds: both a numpad and a centered keyboard?
  - throwaway744678 6y ago
    Perhaps, one can just buy a mouse and have the best of both worlds?
  - ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
    I don't want to have to assemble my laptop in parts. Why not the webcam and the mouse and the speakers while we're at it.
    - kitsunesoba 6y ago
      Assembly shouldn't be required (could be pre-configured from factory) but I don't see any reason why the top deck of a laptop couldn't be modular so the same model could support a more MacBook-like config with a centered keyboard + trackpad with no numpad and larger speakers OR an off-center keyboard and trackpad with numpad and smaller speakers. Actually, thinking about it, it strikes me as slightly absurd that this isn't an option on at least a few mainstream laptops.
    - azangru 6y ago
      > Why not the webcam and the mouse and the speakers while we're at it. Given the reportedly awful quality of webcams and especially speakers on those Clevo laptops, you might be on to something...
    - rbanffy 6y ago
      Great. I need 4 speakers for my quadrophonic music files! ;-)
- rattray 6y ago
  This debate makes me wonder what it'd be like to have a keyboard layout in which the num pad is in the middle of the keyboard, such that on a qwerty keyboard Q-T, A-G, Z-V are on one side and Y-P, H-L, B-M on another, with the numbers in the middle (separated by a buffer space). I know this sounds crazy, but IME the worst part of keyboard ergonomics on mac laptops is that my hands are much closer together than my shoulders are; widening to shoulder width makes for much more comfortable typing. I'm sure nobody will crazy enough to build a laptop like this, but it makes me wonder...
  - franga2000 6y ago
    That does sound neat and would actually be quite withing the realm of possibility for a System76 laptop since their controllers are open-source. If you got like 50 people to chip in, you could probably get the production cost for one unit under 100$, which is still cheaper than most desktop split keyboards on the market.
  - dmos62 6y ago
    Nice idea. Keyboard design is stuck in typewriter era and my shoulders and wrists could use an ergonomics upgrade. There's nice split keyboards, but the price is steep (~300 euros vs my current sub 10 euro keyboard).
    - black_puppydog 6y ago
      I've been typing on a ~60eur let's split for the better part of a year now. Made myself some nice armrests out of scrps of locust. My more expensive keyboards don't hold a candle to it imo
      - rattray 6y ago
        By "scrps of locust" do you mean scraps of Robinia pseudoacacia (black locust) wood?
  - black_puppydog 6y ago
    Get an mnt reform and build your own :D Or just invest the few bucks to go for an mvp: split 60% keyboard and a separate numpad simply stuck between the two splits. If you like it, build it properly. :D
- scns 6y ago
  The NEO2 layout has the numpad on another layer under the right hand, no numpad needed.
- JediPig 6y ago
  go split / layer keyboard, and you will change your mind. I will never go back to a num pad, cause it would mean the loss of layers and a 60% TKL. Until you experience it, you will not have the experience. Either UHK v2 or Dygma Raise. Both are great.
- rbanffy 6y ago
  > It is so annoying to have to type long sequences of digits without one. I can't remember when was the last time I had to type more than 8 at any time.
- rtpg 6y ago
  I feel you, but after having chugged around 17 inch laptops for a while, I've come to the conclusion taht if I need a "big screen" I usually can place an external monitor + a ten-key USB thingy in that place and then just have a good 13 inch for other moments.
- fnord77 6y ago
  even if I had that use-case, I'd still be annoyed having the typing home position off-center.
joshuaengler 6y ago
Ever try using Blender without one? You absolutely need the numpad for 3D programs and game engines, otherwise it's outright painful.
- loop0 6y ago
  You can always add a usb numpad, but you can never remove one that is already there.
  - willis936 6y ago
    True. Why do they sell laptops with screen built in?
    - echelon 6y ago
      Because all laptop users make use of the screen.
      - coldtea 6y ago
        A large number of laptop users just use them on the desktop, tethered to a big screen, in clamshell mode. This includes almost every vlogger setup one can find...
        DarmokJalad1701 6y ago
        Except the primary design goal of a laptop remains portability to some extent. And not having a screen would make it an incomplete device.
        p1necone 6y ago
        Surely this is just due to a lack of knowledge? If you're never going to use the portability, then you can get a much more powerful desktop than a laptop given the same amount of money. Having a built in UPS is pretty sweet for some use cases though.
GiorgioG 6y ago
I don't understand why most developers that work in a stationary location use underpowered/thermally-constrained laptops rather than a desktop machine.
- KptMarchewa 6y ago
  Because I work in multiple stationary locations. Even during pandemic. If I really wanted to work on desktop I'd need to buy a car and bother with transporting it few times a week, or I'd need to buy multiple desktops and move only external SSD. And in that case it would be a luxury, but I'd still want a laptop for occasional work and entertainment from couch.
  - GiorgioG 6y ago
    Or you could have a powerful desktop machine and SSH/RDP into it from a less powerful laptop.
    - KptMarchewa 6y ago
      Latency from multiple locations would be a problem, also would need to expose it to the internet, and static IP is a problem. I'm sure there are solutions to this tho, but not worth it IMO.
- dmos62 6y ago
  I was wondering that about myself for a while. Upgraded from a laptop to a desktop and it's awesome. The ease of maintainability (and upgradability) and ergonomics of not having a laptop on the table are awesome. Plus it's much cheaper.
Dylan16807 6y ago
Lots of people don't care. It can be important to keep the trackpad close to centered on the keyboard for easily use of both, but the screen not aligning by a couple inches is purely aesthetic.
ur-whale 6y ago
If you were a blender user, you would understand.
ansible 6y ago
Six years ago, I searched long and hard for a 15.6in screen laptop with a SSD and no numeric keypad. HP had just come out with the first of their Omen series of gaming laptops. I've sort of regretted the decision. Not the keypad part, I still hate those, but there are other little aspects to the laptop I still don't like, or didn't work quite right. I don't know, I guess I shouldn't really complain. For all the expense, the 16G of RAM and SSD are holding up well after this time. The programmable gaming keys didn't work quite right for my purposes (I just wanted dedicated PgUp / PgDown, Home and End, with the shift and Ctrl variants), and the battery life is crap these days (glued in). It still mostly works though.
Taniwha 6y ago
To me a num pad is a waste of space, but my Dell M6800 with a 3rd mouse button on the trackpad - wonderful luxury!
Shorel 6y ago
I do dislike them too. It would be better for that keypad to be on the left side, as it interferes less with mouse use. But, a friend of mine, was asking specifically to get a laptop with such an extended keyboard.

echelon 6y ago

They're optimizing for the professional accounting Olympics use case.

tastyfreeze 6y ago

I don't understand why many workstation-class laptops DONT have a num pads. It is so annoying to have to type long sequences of digits without one.

echelon 6y ago
Do numbers constitute even 5% of your keyboard usage time?
- urthor 6y ago
  Excel users yes.
- i80and 6y ago
  Depends on what you're doing: any kind of 3D work requires a numpad to be effective, since that's typically where camera controls are bound in every workflow I've seen.
  - spijdar 6y ago
    I'll say I personally can't use numpads, and they're total wasted space for me, so I try to avoid them on my keyboards and laptops, especially because they put the keyboard off-center on said laptops. However, I think there are use cases and people who prefer using them. Some software is really geared around the full cluster being there. I've got a full size, numpad-ed keyboard (some old stock DEC thing that went to a mid 90s alphastation I believe, I got it for dirt cheap) attached to my "windows gaming machine", and I use the numpad on a few shortcut-heavy games. Otherwise, though, I just don't have any muscle memory for it. I have to look and hunt/peck for keys on a numpad. I'm mostly using bash and vim for work, though...
    - detritus 6y ago
      I did work experience for a week for my IT course when I was about 15 in the offices of a petroleum-selling company. I spent a day or two in the accounts department absolutely amazed by the ~50 year old lady who was showing me how she input numeral data into the old green-screen workstation, fingers flying over the numpad inputting quantities and prices. As someone who even then felt I was 'good' with computers, I was stunned and thought I'd never get to that level. Now I feel crippled whenever I'm on my laptop, which doesn't have a numpad, my own fingers flailing uselessly over numbers that whilst in mind are not available to my right hand. I should probably get one of those external numpad USB things, but I much prefer a whinge.
  - lumenwrites 6y ago
    This only applies to Blender. No other 3D software that I know of requires numpad hotkeys. I've been using Maya/Houdini/zBrush for years, never touched the numpad, that feels too awkward. If numpad keybindings in these apps do exist - I never knew about them, never needed to, never will. (because left hand is on the keyboard, and right hand is on the mouse or stylus, and putting down the mouse to reach for a numpad is just weird.) Doing it with the laptop would be even worse, I imagine.
    - krsdcbl 6y ago
      Same goes for Cinema4D, wouldn't know of any numpad shortcuts
- coldtea 6y ago
  To some professions, they do. This includes a surprising variety, from accountants and POS, to 3D modelling artists...
- detritus 6y ago
  Outside of typing out emails or schpiels, yes. If I discount Ctrl, Alt & Shift - probably significantly more than 5%.
gmac 6y ago
Perhaps because you can buy a separate numpad if you want one, and then have the best of both worlds: both a numpad and a centered keyboard?
- throwaway744678 6y ago
  Perhaps, one can just buy a mouse and have the best of both worlds?
- ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
  I don't want to have to assemble my laptop in parts. Why not the webcam and the mouse and the speakers while we're at it.
  - kitsunesoba 6y ago
    Assembly shouldn't be required (could be pre-configured from factory) but I don't see any reason why the top deck of a laptop couldn't be modular so the same model could support a more MacBook-like config with a centered keyboard + trackpad with no numpad and larger speakers OR an off-center keyboard and trackpad with numpad and smaller speakers. Actually, thinking about it, it strikes me as slightly absurd that this isn't an option on at least a few mainstream laptops.
  - azangru 6y ago
    > Why not the webcam and the mouse and the speakers while we're at it. Given the reportedly awful quality of webcams and especially speakers on those Clevo laptops, you might be on to something...
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    Great. I need 4 speakers for my quadrophonic music files! ;-)
rattray 6y ago
This debate makes me wonder what it'd be like to have a keyboard layout in which the num pad is in the middle of the keyboard, such that on a qwerty keyboard Q-T, A-G, Z-V are on one side and Y-P, H-L, B-M on another, with the numbers in the middle (separated by a buffer space). I know this sounds crazy, but IME the worst part of keyboard ergonomics on mac laptops is that my hands are much closer together than my shoulders are; widening to shoulder width makes for much more comfortable typing. I'm sure nobody will crazy enough to build a laptop like this, but it makes me wonder...
- franga2000 6y ago
  That does sound neat and would actually be quite withing the realm of possibility for a System76 laptop since their controllers are open-source. If you got like 50 people to chip in, you could probably get the production cost for one unit under 100$, which is still cheaper than most desktop split keyboards on the market.
- dmos62 6y ago
  Nice idea. Keyboard design is stuck in typewriter era and my shoulders and wrists could use an ergonomics upgrade. There's nice split keyboards, but the price is steep (~300 euros vs my current sub 10 euro keyboard).
  - black_puppydog 6y ago
    I've been typing on a ~60eur let's split for the better part of a year now. Made myself some nice armrests out of scrps of locust. My more expensive keyboards don't hold a candle to it imo
    - rattray 6y ago
      By "scrps of locust" do you mean scraps of Robinia pseudoacacia (black locust) wood?
- black_puppydog 6y ago
  Get an mnt reform and build your own :D Or just invest the few bucks to go for an mvp: split 60% keyboard and a separate numpad simply stuck between the two splits. If you like it, build it properly. :D
scns 6y ago
The NEO2 layout has the numpad on another layer under the right hand, no numpad needed.
JediPig 6y ago
go split / layer keyboard, and you will change your mind. I will never go back to a num pad, cause it would mean the loss of layers and a 60% TKL. Until you experience it, you will not have the experience. Either UHK v2 or Dygma Raise. Both are great.
rbanffy 6y ago
> It is so annoying to have to type long sequences of digits without one. I can't remember when was the last time I had to type more than 8 at any time.
rtpg 6y ago
I feel you, but after having chugged around 17 inch laptops for a while, I've come to the conclusion taht if I need a "big screen" I usually can place an external monitor + a ten-key USB thingy in that place and then just have a good 13 inch for other moments.
fnord77 6y ago
even if I had that use-case, I'd still be annoyed having the typing home position off-center.

joshuaengler 6y ago

Ever try using Blender without one? You absolutely need the numpad for 3D programs and game engines, otherwise it's outright painful.

loop0 6y ago
You can always add a usb numpad, but you can never remove one that is already there.
- willis936 6y ago
  True. Why do they sell laptops with screen built in?
  - echelon 6y ago
    Because all laptop users make use of the screen.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      A large number of laptop users just use them on the desktop, tethered to a big screen, in clamshell mode. This includes almost every vlogger setup one can find...
      - DarmokJalad1701 6y ago
        Except the primary design goal of a laptop remains portability to some extent. And not having a screen would make it an incomplete device.
      - p1necone 6y ago
        Surely this is just due to a lack of knowledge? If you're never going to use the portability, then you can get a much more powerful desktop than a laptop given the same amount of money. Having a built in UPS is pretty sweet for some use cases though.

GiorgioG 6y ago

I don't understand why most developers that work in a stationary location use underpowered/thermally-constrained laptops rather than a desktop machine.

KptMarchewa 6y ago
Because I work in multiple stationary locations. Even during pandemic. If I really wanted to work on desktop I'd need to buy a car and bother with transporting it few times a week, or I'd need to buy multiple desktops and move only external SSD. And in that case it would be a luxury, but I'd still want a laptop for occasional work and entertainment from couch.
- GiorgioG 6y ago
  Or you could have a powerful desktop machine and SSH/RDP into it from a less powerful laptop.
  - KptMarchewa 6y ago
    Latency from multiple locations would be a problem, also would need to expose it to the internet, and static IP is a problem. I'm sure there are solutions to this tho, but not worth it IMO.
dmos62 6y ago
I was wondering that about myself for a while. Upgraded from a laptop to a desktop and it's awesome. The ease of maintainability (and upgradability) and ergonomics of not having a laptop on the table are awesome. Plus it's much cheaper.

Dylan16807 6y ago

Lots of people don't care. It can be important to keep the trackpad close to centered on the keyboard for easily use of both, but the screen not aligning by a couple inches is purely aesthetic.

ur-whale 6y ago

If you were a blender user, you would understand.

ansible 6y ago

Six years ago, I searched long and hard for a 15.6in screen laptop with a SSD and no numeric keypad. HP had just come out with the first of their Omen series of gaming laptops. I've sort of regretted the decision. Not the keypad part, I still hate those, but there are other little aspects to the laptop I still don't like, or didn't work quite right. I don't know, I guess I shouldn't really complain. For all the expense, the 16G of RAM and SSD are holding up well after this time. The programmable gaming keys didn't work quite right for my purposes (I just wanted dedicated PgUp / PgDown, Home and End, with the shift and Ctrl variants), and the battery life is crap these days (glued in). It still mostly works though.

Taniwha 6y ago

To me a num pad is a waste of space, but my Dell M6800 with a 3rd mouse button on the trackpad - wonderful luxury!

Shorel 6y ago

I do dislike them too. It would be better for that keypad to be on the left side, as it interferes less with mouse use. But, a friend of mine, was asking specifically to get a laptop with such an extended keyboard.