15 ms·

Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

276 points by foobarbecue 6y ago

1-6 6y ago
I worked on an old Honda Odyssey that I bought used from a friend for $100. It took at least $2000 in parts but I could find all the parts on RockAuto.com (The site is ugly but functional). Just like cars, in the long-run, I think bringing products to market which are repairable will help create trust between manufacturer and end-user. In fact, the resale value of an older item depends on the affordability of the repair.
- 1-6 6y ago
  Unfortunately, Tesla is starting to build their battery packs in-frame so it'll become harder to repair. https://electrek.co/2021/01/19/tesla-structural-battery-pack-first-picture/ https://electrek.co/2021/01/19/tesla-structural-battery-pack...
  - Cthulhu_ 6y ago
    I'm kinda hoping that there will be legislation or standardization for battery packs. As it stands, when that battery pack is end-of-life, the whole car will be scrapped because it's not financially viable to have a new one installed. But if it's standardized, if it's EOL the battery pack can be replaced with either a new, better battery (e.g. solid state) or a refurbished / secondhand battery. And the EOL battery pack handed in for refurbishment, which hopefully significantly reduces cost. Then again, I'm reading that the average car is scrapped after about 14 years. Might be high-end Model S-es may live longer, but if we get more cheap EVs, refurbishing the battery won't be viable no matter how cheap they make it.
    - fortran77 6y ago
      According to many sources, for example this CNET article, cars are one of the best-recycled products around, with "86%" (according to this article) of the material in a car recycled to use again: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/recyclable-cars-what-parts-end-up-in-the-trash/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/recyclable-cars-what-part...
      - xmodem 6y ago
        That sort of metric is counting by weight, which I'm not sure can be directly compared to other products. Google says the average compact car weights 1324 kg, the un-recyclable porition of that is equivalant to one hell of a lot of iPhones.
    - bzzzt 6y ago
      If the battery costs 75% of the car does it make sense to try to refurbish it? There are old model S cars on the road with half a million miles on and still usable range. After that kind of mileage I expect the rest of the car to be pretty worn too...
  - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
    A real shame since electric cars are extremely simple. There’s not a panoply of different parts that slowly wear out and need to be troubleshooted separately and replaced at different times. It’s basically the battery pack and brakes.
    - rsj_hn 6y ago
      There are suspension systems, heating/AC, doors, sunroofs, motors controlling windows and doors, sealants around the same, lights, infotainment systems, seats and seat controls and motors controlling these, power steering, heat pumps, multiple cameras (each of which can fail), huge numbers of sensors (including radar), as well as wiring between the cameras and sensors and all other other components, differentials, brakes, brake regeneration, transmission (yes, Tesla has a transmission, just a simple one), engine, and battery. All of these can suffer failure and require replacing. Even if they are unlikely to wear out in normal circumstances, people get into fender benders, and there are always exceptional circumstances. Given the huge number of parts and miles of wiring, the average owner can expect exceptional failures on a few parts. All modern cars are extremely complex, even if the drivetrain is simplified.
      - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
        No oil changes, water pump, fuel pump, valves, spark plugs, radiator, alternator, starter, ignition system, oxygen sensors, etc. The amount of parts that go into a functioning internal combustion engine is quite staggering. The unfortunate part of this is that ICE cars are effectively trashed once the engine seizes. Replacing the engine is almost always more expensive than replacing the car, and many things can still wear out once the engine is replaced. If you look at the 10k, 50k, 100k maintenance on EVs is almost a joke[1]. 1. https://www.myev.com/research/ev-101/what-does-it-take-to-maintain-an-electric-vehicle https://www.myev.com/research/ev-101/what-does-it-take-to-ma...
        rsj_hn 6y ago
        > If you look at the 10k, 50k, 100k maintenance on EVs is almost a joke So then you should have no problem buying an out of warranty Tesla - it should be inexpensive to maintain, right? This is the difference between theory and practice. Even though ICE engines are more complex (true) they are nevertheless well understood, the manufacturing process has been refined, and there is a robust aftermarket and network of independent dealers so that costs are controlled. One thousand dollar door handle replacement on your Tesla (https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/90061/door-handle-not-functioning https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/90061/door-handle-not-fu...) is going to make up for a lot of oil changes. The issue with PEV is that these are new components and the manufacturers have locked down the supply chain so you have to go to the manufacturer. That's how you get these insane repair costs and why right to repair and a robust third party market is so important. Each time someone suggests how much cheaper to maintain the EVs are, ask them why no EV manufacturer is offering a 20 year 200,000 mile warranty. If the costs are really 90% lower, then this should be easy to do. And Tesla should easily be able to set aside only 10% of what other automakers set aside for warranty reserves. Yet we see that "Business news publication Barron’s calculated that Tesla's third quarter additions to the warranty reserve were 2.7% of the company's car sales – slightly higher than the auto industry average of 2.5%. That’s despite the fact that electric engines have fewer parts that are subject to wear than internal combustion engines, making them potentially cheaper to maintain." https://fortune.com/2020/03/04/tesla-warranties-accounting-profits/ https://fortune.com/2020/03/04/tesla-warranties-accounting-p... But again, there is a difference between theory and practice, between a well understood, mature system and a new system. If you don't believe me, then go ahead and buy that out of warranty car with lots of new tech and see how it works out for you. I'll wait.
  - jackcviers3 6y ago
    This is so backwards. If they want electric cars to dominate, they need interchangeable, standardized batteries that can be swapped out by machines at gas stations just like stopping for gas. You'll never have batteries that charge quickly enough for a cross-country trip and have range.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
dbcurtis 6y ago
Let’s hope so. As an old farm boy and a do-it-yourselfer that grew up in the farm shop fixing equipment, few things get my blood boiling as much as the current machinery software lock-downs.
- 1-6 6y ago
  It's a brave new world. Fortunately, we have Russian hackers by our side generously sharing their code to bypass DRM in farm equipment.
JoshTko 6y ago
I don't want a bulky, heavy, non waterproof, and less reliable smartphone (due to more moveable parts) just to have a easily replaceable battery.
- gogopuppygogo 6y ago
  Right to repair is not about making devices more repairable but about enabling us to buy parts and service from third parties outside the manufacturers. Apple has begun serializing parts. You cannot take a camera from one iPhone 12 and put it into another iPhone 12 because Apple serialized the camera to the phone it shipped with. They are beyond reasonable with this kind of hostile approach to repair.
  - JoshTko 6y ago
    I think Apple is justifiably terrified of a 3rd party battery, installed by someone with 5 minutes of training, causing a fire and making headlines.
    - spamizbad 6y ago
      Okay, then why is the camera serialized and not the battery (which, incidentally, you CAN replace on the iPhone 12)?
      - bzzzt 6y ago
        Just guessing: - it's a component of the Face ID authentication scheme - they don't want people using iPhones with sub-par camera's posting on social media - they don't want iPhones with sub-par camera's on the second hand market
        smoldesu 6y ago
        Then don't let it take sub-par cameras. I don't give a rats ass about serialized components as long as I can still buy and install the factory parts.
simias 6y ago
I definitely think it's a good idea. The other week my girlfriend's Western Digital external drive stopped working, I wanted to open it to figure out if it was the drive itself or the sata-to-USB logic. Took me 20 minutes to open the case, and I damaged it significantly in the process. Turns out that it was only the USB adapter that was out of order, I bought a cheap-o USB 3 case and now it works again. Yesterday I wanted to fix the light on a USB wallsocket I have, I gave up because after 10 minutes I couldn't figure out how to even open the thing up. I tried squeezing it, tapping it in various parts, prying at various seams, nothing would give. That being said, I really wonder how you could regulate this easily. Lack of screws could be argued to be beneficial for aesthetics for instance. Modern smartphones are a pain to repair in no small part because size is very important so everything is crammed together, and highly integrated components are usually smaller and yield better economies of scale. I think it's a good idea, but I'm really not sure how it could be implemented well.
- bowl 6y ago
  In my opinion, I think the best way to implement this is something like the repairability labels, like how it's done in the EU. Not sure how to pick who gets to decide what goes on the labels, however.
- MayeulC 6y ago
  > Yesterday I wanted to fix the light on a USB wallsocket I have, I gave up because after 10 minutes I couldn't figure out how to even open the thing up. I tried squeezing it, tapping it in various parts, prying at various seams, nothing would give. Did you try looking up the manual? Even if the steps for removing it aren't documented, you can often walk the installation steps in reverse order. Visible serial + some documentation would help a great deal.
- intricatedetail 6y ago
  Classic WD. So you dodged a bullet. I had WD drive that USB board failed and that board contained encryption key. So I lost data even if I could install the board from other drive. And they had a nerve to advertise this as a feature pro consumer! (It encrypted the data even if you didn't turn encryption on)
bonestamp2 6y ago
A good, and easy, first step would be for states to adopt laws that have the same requirements as Massachusetts. Many companies already comply with their right to repair laws, so it would be relatively quick and easy to comply with the same laws elsewhere. The second step would be to support MA (or some other state) in adopting even more consumer (and environmentally) friendly right to repair laws, especially for: consumer electronics; automotive; large and small home appliances; and farm equipment. Then everyone else can piggyback on those laws by adopting similar ones themselves.
the_af 6y ago
I was re-reading (ok, actually trying to finish yet again) Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and I think some of what Pirsig says at the beginning of the book applies here. Namely, the division between people who just want things to work and hope "somebody" else will step in when a fix is needed, and those who understand the abstraction sometimes leaks, and you need to be able to dig in and at least know how to solve some problems "under the hood". He makes a whole philosophy of "romantics" vs "classics" out of it, but I think that's irrelevant here: what matters is that no-one should be forced to be powerless about the hardware they own. This is obviously related to the right to repair. Pirsig wasn't thinking of Apple, but he does mention John Deere!
- gcanyon 6y ago
  First: I can't imagine not finishing Zen -- it is among my top ten books. Second: I agree, no one should be forced to be "powerless" about the hardware they own. But right to repair is exactly that: I don't want a phone with a detachable battery and upgradable memory -- that means the phone isn't waterproof and/or is much thicker and heavier. I don't want to force people to have the phone I prefer, but I also don't want the kind of phone right to repair would force me to have.
  - fartcannon 6y ago
    I'll be you they find a way to keep the phones looking the way you want while still making them repairable. I'll bet you all that cant-be-done stuff is excuses and bullshit.
  - the_af 6y ago
    > First: I can't imagine not finishing Zen -- it is among my top ten books. Well, I'm making a second attempt. I really liked it the first time, but it requires a certain state of enjoy -- skim reading it just won't do. I think Pirsig would understand why it took me years. He makes a point about slowness and not rushing things, the journey vs the destination. > I also don't want the kind of phone right to repair would force me to have. So you're in John Sutherland's camp, with his trusty BMW R60 that requires no involvement on his part -- till it does, of course, and it frustrates him.
kevbin 6y ago
> Connecticut, Colorado, Delaware, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Missouri, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, Oklahoma, Oregon, and Washington state are all considering broad [right-to-repair] laws that would apply to most of the stuff we use everyday. Meanwhile, in Sacramento, it is illegal to repair your own car at your own home. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26421495 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26421495
- ghaff 6y ago
  Massachusetts had to go for round 2 of their legislation because Tesla in particular was using a loophole to get around it: https://www.vice.com/en/article/93wy8v/newly-passed-right-to-repair-law-will-fundamentally-change-tesla-repair https://www.vice.com/en/article/93wy8v/newly-passed-right-to...
- fasteddie31003 6y ago
  Just looked into that law. It does exist https://code-enforcement.saccounty.net/Programs/pages/autorepair.aspx https://code-enforcement.saccounty.net/Programs/pages/autore... I remember when I lived in SF and I would repair my own car and everyone kinda looked at me weird. Maybe it was because people probably thought I was stealing a catalytic converter or something.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  This is a bit misleading. The Sacramento regulation appears to be about zoning to dissuade commercial repair operations on residential grounds. This is bad, but is not really "anti repair" any more than not being allowed to operate a bar/food service business out of your own home.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - autorepair 6y ago
    Unfortunately the law is more draconian. The FAQ of the law provided by a comment below says 1. only minor repairs are explicitly allowed 2. only using tools found in a typical household. 3. it lists specific examples of what is allowed (brakes, oil, tire changes) and says all repairs must be like that 4. Must be in an enclosed space if the repair takes more than 24 hours (so no restoring an old beauty on your private driveway). Pretty much only trivial fixes are allowed. https://code-enforcement.saccounty.net/Programs/pages/autorepair.aspx https://code-enforcement.saccounty.net/Programs/pages/autore... https://code-enforcement.saccounty.net/Programs/pages/autorepair.aspx https://code-enforcement.saccounty.net/Programs/pages/autore...
dbg31415 6y ago
> When your stuff breaks, you should be able to fix it yourself. This concept is inherently flawed. These complex devices were built by teams of highly skilled and specialized engineers. The concept that you should be able to repair it with a screwdriver and a 6-pack is outdated. I grew up on a cattle ranch, and we had lots of tractors and equipment -- some of it over 100 years old. I rebuilt an International Farmall Model B Tractor with my Dad when I was 14. And it was a lot of fun to go around to old junk yards and find the parts we needed. This tractor was built in the 1940s and I think that's what people think of when they think tractors. I learned how clean an maintain simple engines, how to organize parts so I could confidently take something apart and put it back together again, how to bend and weld metal. It was a great project. Totally 100% think every kid should do something like this. When the tractor was done, and repainted, I got to drive it in a parade. When we were putting that tractor back together... a lot of times bolts needed to be cut, drilled out, holes re-tooled, or just welded back into place. And while it looked fine, there's no way someone should think we were professionals. I'd be scared if someone took that tractor and tried to do real work with it. There was one place in particular, where I used a bunch of bailing wire to hold a non-visible part where it needed to be held. And it worked OK for driving in a parade. But if someone had attached something to the PTO shaft... and it needed significant torque, I'm guessing the bailing wire MacGyver patch job would have caused catastrophic failure. And that's fine, if it happens as soon as you do it, but like, what if it happened while you were working in the field, or what if someone else (20+ years later) starts the tractor up and uses it -- not knowing that my splice is in place? It makes the machine fundamentally unreliable, unsafe. Now... that was an 80 years old tractor. Fast forward to today, when the machines have conservatively 1,000 times more power. Ranchers cut corners all the time... can't wait a week for parts? Just splice something. But how does the software know to account for that? It's expecting a load of 1,000 pounds and it adjusts hydraulics accordingly... but what if due to the "fix" it can now only support a load of 300 pounds? And let's say someone is hurt? Is that on John Deere? Or the Rancher who bought the tractor 2nd hand at an auction? Is that on the insurance company, that has to insure equipment that costs 10s if not 100s of thousands of dollars that get plugged into the tractor and rely on it operating to spec? It's just such a massive can of worms. So let's then add the software element. And assume that some fixes are going to not just be hardware, but software-related as well. Would that mean that John Deere, or Apple, or anyone, would have to make their code open-source -- for all of their competitors to review as well? Or provide peer review if you want to make a change? For how long? Like let's assume tractors today last as long as the tractor I rebuilt with my Dad in the 90s... 50 years? Wonder how you even factor in 1/2 a century of support in to the purchase cost. Oof. Anyway, it's just a mess. People over simplify it, "I should be able to fix my bike, so I should be able to fix this $500,000 tractor..." and at some point it just doesn't scale. And, like others have said... I really don't want to have to run my phone through some sort of unit testing / compliance check every time I go to get on an airplane. Batteries, and phone software... they're a whole other complex issue. Even what we have now, with 3rd Party batteries... it's pretty risky.
JoshTko 6y ago
Should software companies give access to source code so that users can fix bugs?
- foobarbecue 6y ago
  Yes
- Lio 6y ago
  This, I believe, was the original driver for Richard Stallman to start the GNU project. The story I heard him tell was about two printers at MIT. An old one with source code available which they were able to upgrade with many new network features. The other a modern one with better performance but closed source software. Stallman actually found out that a colleague had been given access to the source code but told explicitly not to allow other MIT staff to see it. That infuriated him enough to create the Free Software movement.
- HomeDeLaPot 6y ago
  Yes, depending on the audience. If it's a software library, it should be open source—devs are likely to benefit from reading the source, if not likely to contribute fixes. If it's some kind of SaaS or mobile app, maybe nobody will take the time to contribute anything worthwhile. But I would say iPhones and tractors are widely used, expensive, and have capable audiences, making them great candidates for right to repair/contribute/learn. John Deere and Apple have simply found that they can make more money by forcing users to come to them for repairs.
Ccecil 6y ago
I remember back when I was young opening up an older stereo my parents had and right inside was the schematic and wiring diagram for the whole machine. My father had a shop manual for his 1962 Ford Thunderbird and not only did it tell you how to fix it but it also showed how to make any needed "special tools" for the car. I am not saying every single thing in the world is going to be user serviced...but it is a shame that in such a high tech world with access to just about any hardware/information needed we are increasingly not being "allowed to". If we continue to allow qualified users to be stifled by DRM for the sake of increasing profits through planned obsolecence we are going to see greatly increased levels of ecological damage and waste. I remember a time where the worst case scenario of working on your own devices was simply voiding a warranty. It may seem like a modern tractor is a $500k machine which "simple folk" shouldn't work on...but don't forget the tractors of 50 years ago were viewed by outsiders the same way. Farmers have always been innovators of varying levels of skill...but they all have one thing in common, they don't seem to be scared of fixing stuff. IMHO, a well connected forum of tractor owners likely knows close to as much about their tractors as the company that made them...even without access to manuals. Limiting those who tinker and innovate can do no good. It is high time we change the slogan to "reduce, reuse, repair, recycle". The very last option should be recycling...not the second.
- bluetwo 6y ago
  I think of farmers as intuitive understanders of physics, chemistry, and biology. Manipulating these things is essentially what they do all day long.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  > f we continue to allow qualified users to be stifled by DRM for the sake of increasing profits through planned obsolecence we are going to see greatly increased levels of ecological damage and waste. Waste is one concern but there is also a hidden cost. Every curious person that we prevent from opening up or fixing their machine contributes to a net loss of innovation in the long run.
  - justwalt 6y ago
doggydogs94 6y ago
Right to repair is great. Of course, 99% of us will end up bricking our phone if we tried to replace the screen or battery.
- bogwog 6y ago
  That's FUD
- Lio 6y ago
  We would like the right to take our phones to independent specialists to have them repair them with equivalent parts to the original where possible. It's the case that in the EU and UK (for now) that we can take our cars to qualified independent service centres without invalidating our warrantees. We want the same for our phones and other devices.
- ma3gl1n 6y ago
  I have a soft bricked Xiaomi phone with a locked bootloader. I haven't seen any need to unlock it, because I was fine with its OS (It is an AndroidOne phone with stock Android). One day the phone froze while I was listening to music, and upon a forced restart, it stuck on bootloop. An issue that should have been fairly easy to fix with a reset, or at worst with a reflash of the original ROM. But turned out that I could not do any of those with a locked bootloader. Later I've found out that Android phones have an "Emergency Download Mode" (EDL) that you can access by short-circuiting 2 test points on motherboard. Since I couldn't find a better option, I've opened my phone and tried to flash "the original", Xiaomi released ROM, but blocked yet again from doing so, because Xiaomi also locked the EDL mode. Only authorized Xiaomi personnel can flash "their" phones through EDL mode. I didn't know any of that when I bought my phone, there was zero mention for bootloaders on user manual, EDL lock was added after a software update (which I've learned years later, as it wasn't mentioned on release notes). So, my phone is waiting for benevolent hackers to find "exploits" in its bootloader to be usable again.
alert0 6y ago
A US law mandating right to repair could really improve domestic electronics knowledge and capability. So much of that work is out sourced to a foreign manufacturer, as rebuilding is cheaper than repairing. If consumers or even a handful of specialized shops had repair-level knowledge in micro electronics, it would set the stage for all sorts of innovation and new products.
megiddo 6y ago
How does this entire article have no references to the DMCA and copyright? Like, the ENTIRETY of the "right-to-repair" issue could be resolved by repealing the worst parts (or all of) the DMCA and updating copyright law with respect to machine code or object code to make it fair for buyers. If I buy a book, cut it up and make a collage, the original author can't claim copyright. Do the same with some object code, you break the law.

276 points by foobarbecue 6y ago

1-6 6y ago

I worked on an old Honda Odyssey that I bought used from a friend for $100. It took at least $2000 in parts but I could find all the parts on RockAuto.com (The site is ugly but functional). Just like cars, in the long-run, I think bringing products to market which are repairable will help create trust between manufacturer and end-user. In fact, the resale value of an older item depends on the affordability of the repair.

1-6 6y ago
Unfortunately, Tesla is starting to build their battery packs in-frame so it'll become harder to repair. https://electrek.co/2021/01/19/tesla-structural-battery-pack-first-picture/ https://electrek.co/2021/01/19/tesla-structural-battery-pack...
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  I'm kinda hoping that there will be legislation or standardization for battery packs. As it stands, when that battery pack is end-of-life, the whole car will be scrapped because it's not financially viable to have a new one installed. But if it's standardized, if it's EOL the battery pack can be replaced with either a new, better battery (e.g. solid state) or a refurbished / secondhand battery. And the EOL battery pack handed in for refurbishment, which hopefully significantly reduces cost. Then again, I'm reading that the average car is scrapped after about 14 years. Might be high-end Model S-es may live longer, but if we get more cheap EVs, refurbishing the battery won't be viable no matter how cheap they make it.
  - fortran77 6y ago
    According to many sources, for example this CNET article, cars are one of the best-recycled products around, with "86%" (according to this article) of the material in a car recycled to use again: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/recyclable-cars-what-parts-end-up-in-the-trash/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/recyclable-cars-what-part...
    - xmodem 6y ago
      That sort of metric is counting by weight, which I'm not sure can be directly compared to other products. Google says the average compact car weights 1324 kg, the un-recyclable porition of that is equivalant to one hell of a lot of iPhones.
  - bzzzt 6y ago
    If the battery costs 75% of the car does it make sense to try to refurbish it? There are old model S cars on the road with half a million miles on and still usable range. After that kind of mileage I expect the rest of the car to be pretty worn too...
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  A real shame since electric cars are extremely simple. There’s not a panoply of different parts that slowly wear out and need to be troubleshooted separately and replaced at different times. It’s basically the battery pack and brakes.
  - rsj_hn 6y ago
    There are suspension systems, heating/AC, doors, sunroofs, motors controlling windows and doors, sealants around the same, lights, infotainment systems, seats and seat controls and motors controlling these, power steering, heat pumps, multiple cameras (each of which can fail), huge numbers of sensors (including radar), as well as wiring between the cameras and sensors and all other other components, differentials, brakes, brake regeneration, transmission (yes, Tesla has a transmission, just a simple one), engine, and battery. All of these can suffer failure and require replacing. Even if they are unlikely to wear out in normal circumstances, people get into fender benders, and there are always exceptional circumstances. Given the huge number of parts and miles of wiring, the average owner can expect exceptional failures on a few parts. All modern cars are extremely complex, even if the drivetrain is simplified.
    - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
      No oil changes, water pump, fuel pump, valves, spark plugs, radiator, alternator, starter, ignition system, oxygen sensors, etc. The amount of parts that go into a functioning internal combustion engine is quite staggering. The unfortunate part of this is that ICE cars are effectively trashed once the engine seizes. Replacing the engine is almost always more expensive than replacing the car, and many things can still wear out once the engine is replaced. If you look at the 10k, 50k, 100k maintenance on EVs is almost a joke[1]. 1. https://www.myev.com/research/ev-101/what-does-it-take-to-maintain-an-electric-vehicle https://www.myev.com/research/ev-101/what-does-it-take-to-ma...
      - rsj_hn 6y ago
        > If you look at the 10k, 50k, 100k maintenance on EVs is almost a joke So then you should have no problem buying an out of warranty Tesla - it should be inexpensive to maintain, right? This is the difference between theory and practice. Even though ICE engines are more complex (true) they are nevertheless well understood, the manufacturing process has been refined, and there is a robust aftermarket and network of independent dealers so that costs are controlled. One thousand dollar door handle replacement on your Tesla (https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/90061/door-handle-not-functioning https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/90061/door-handle-not-fu...) is going to make up for a lot of oil changes. The issue with PEV is that these are new components and the manufacturers have locked down the supply chain so you have to go to the manufacturer. That's how you get these insane repair costs and why right to repair and a robust third party market is so important. Each time someone suggests how much cheaper to maintain the EVs are, ask them why no EV manufacturer is offering a 20 year 200,000 mile warranty. If the costs are really 90% lower, then this should be easy to do. And Tesla should easily be able to set aside only 10% of what other automakers set aside for warranty reserves. Yet we see that "Business news publication Barron’s calculated that Tesla's third quarter additions to the warranty reserve were 2.7% of the company's car sales – slightly higher than the auto industry average of 2.5%. That’s despite the fact that electric engines have fewer parts that are subject to wear than internal combustion engines, making them potentially cheaper to maintain." https://fortune.com/2020/03/04/tesla-warranties-accounting-profits/ https://fortune.com/2020/03/04/tesla-warranties-accounting-p... But again, there is a difference between theory and practice, between a well understood, mature system and a new system. If you don't believe me, then go ahead and buy that out of warranty car with lots of new tech and see how it works out for you. I'll wait.
- jackcviers3 6y ago
  This is so backwards. If they want electric cars to dominate, they need interchangeable, standardized batteries that can be swapped out by machines at gas stations just like stopping for gas. You'll never have batteries that charge quickly enough for a cross-country trip and have range.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

dbcurtis 6y ago

Let’s hope so. As an old farm boy and a do-it-yourselfer that grew up in the farm shop fixing equipment, few things get my blood boiling as much as the current machinery software lock-downs.

1-6 6y ago
It's a brave new world. Fortunately, we have Russian hackers by our side generously sharing their code to bypass DRM in farm equipment.

JoshTko 6y ago

I don't want a bulky, heavy, non waterproof, and less reliable smartphone (due to more moveable parts) just to have a easily replaceable battery.

gogopuppygogo 6y ago
Right to repair is not about making devices more repairable but about enabling us to buy parts and service from third parties outside the manufacturers. Apple has begun serializing parts. You cannot take a camera from one iPhone 12 and put it into another iPhone 12 because Apple serialized the camera to the phone it shipped with. They are beyond reasonable with this kind of hostile approach to repair.
- JoshTko 6y ago
  I think Apple is justifiably terrified of a 3rd party battery, installed by someone with 5 minutes of training, causing a fire and making headlines.
  - spamizbad 6y ago
    Okay, then why is the camera serialized and not the battery (which, incidentally, you CAN replace on the iPhone 12)?
    - bzzzt 6y ago
      Just guessing: - it's a component of the Face ID authentication scheme - they don't want people using iPhones with sub-par camera's posting on social media - they don't want iPhones with sub-par camera's on the second hand market
      - smoldesu 6y ago
        Then don't let it take sub-par cameras. I don't give a rats ass about serialized components as long as I can still buy and install the factory parts.

simias 6y ago

I definitely think it's a good idea. The other week my girlfriend's Western Digital external drive stopped working, I wanted to open it to figure out if it was the drive itself or the sata-to-USB logic. Took me 20 minutes to open the case, and I damaged it significantly in the process. Turns out that it was only the USB adapter that was out of order, I bought a cheap-o USB 3 case and now it works again. Yesterday I wanted to fix the light on a USB wallsocket I have, I gave up because after 10 minutes I couldn't figure out how to even open the thing up. I tried squeezing it, tapping it in various parts, prying at various seams, nothing would give. That being said, I really wonder how you could regulate this easily. Lack of screws could be argued to be beneficial for aesthetics for instance. Modern smartphones are a pain to repair in no small part because size is very important so everything is crammed together, and highly integrated components are usually smaller and yield better economies of scale. I think it's a good idea, but I'm really not sure how it could be implemented well.

bowl 6y ago
In my opinion, I think the best way to implement this is something like the repairability labels, like how it's done in the EU. Not sure how to pick who gets to decide what goes on the labels, however.
MayeulC 6y ago
> Yesterday I wanted to fix the light on a USB wallsocket I have, I gave up because after 10 minutes I couldn't figure out how to even open the thing up. I tried squeezing it, tapping it in various parts, prying at various seams, nothing would give. Did you try looking up the manual? Even if the steps for removing it aren't documented, you can often walk the installation steps in reverse order. Visible serial + some documentation would help a great deal.
intricatedetail 6y ago
Classic WD. So you dodged a bullet. I had WD drive that USB board failed and that board contained encryption key. So I lost data even if I could install the board from other drive. And they had a nerve to advertise this as a feature pro consumer! (It encrypted the data even if you didn't turn encryption on)

bonestamp2 6y ago

A good, and easy, first step would be for states to adopt laws that have the same requirements as Massachusetts. Many companies already comply with their right to repair laws, so it would be relatively quick and easy to comply with the same laws elsewhere. The second step would be to support MA (or some other state) in adopting even more consumer (and environmentally) friendly right to repair laws, especially for: consumer electronics; automotive; large and small home appliances; and farm equipment. Then everyone else can piggyback on those laws by adopting similar ones themselves.

the_af 6y ago

I was re-reading (ok, actually trying to finish yet again) Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and I think some of what Pirsig says at the beginning of the book applies here. Namely, the division between people who just want things to work and hope "somebody" else will step in when a fix is needed, and those who understand the abstraction sometimes leaks, and you need to be able to dig in and at least know how to solve some problems "under the hood". He makes a whole philosophy of "romantics" vs "classics" out of it, but I think that's irrelevant here: what matters is that no-one should be forced to be powerless about the hardware they own. This is obviously related to the right to repair. Pirsig wasn't thinking of Apple, but he does mention John Deere!

gcanyon 6y ago
First: I can't imagine not finishing Zen -- it is among my top ten books. Second: I agree, no one should be forced to be "powerless" about the hardware they own. But right to repair is exactly that: I don't want a phone with a detachable battery and upgradable memory -- that means the phone isn't waterproof and/or is much thicker and heavier. I don't want to force people to have the phone I prefer, but I also don't want the kind of phone right to repair would force me to have.
- fartcannon 6y ago
  I'll be you they find a way to keep the phones looking the way you want while still making them repairable. I'll bet you all that cant-be-done stuff is excuses and bullshit.
- the_af 6y ago
  > First: I can't imagine not finishing Zen -- it is among my top ten books. Well, I'm making a second attempt. I really liked it the first time, but it requires a certain state of enjoy -- skim reading it just won't do. I think Pirsig would understand why it took me years. He makes a point about slowness and not rushing things, the journey vs the destination. > I also don't want the kind of phone right to repair would force me to have. So you're in John Sutherland's camp, with his trusty BMW R60 that requires no involvement on his part -- till it does, of course, and it frustrates him.

kevbin 6y ago

> Connecticut, Colorado, Delaware, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Missouri, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, Oklahoma, Oregon, and Washington state are all considering broad [right-to-repair] laws that would apply to most of the stuff we use everyday. Meanwhile, in Sacramento, it is illegal to repair your own car at your own home. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26421495 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26421495

ghaff 6y ago
Massachusetts had to go for round 2 of their legislation because Tesla in particular was using a loophole to get around it: https://www.vice.com/en/article/93wy8v/newly-passed-right-to-repair-law-will-fundamentally-change-tesla-repair https://www.vice.com/en/article/93wy8v/newly-passed-right-to...
fasteddie31003 6y ago
Just looked into that law. It does exist https://code-enforcement.saccounty.net/Programs/pages/autorepair.aspx https://code-enforcement.saccounty.net/Programs/pages/autore... I remember when I lived in SF and I would repair my own car and everyone kinda looked at me weird. Maybe it was because people probably thought I was stealing a catalytic converter or something.
Nextgrid 6y ago
This is a bit misleading. The Sacramento regulation appears to be about zoning to dissuade commercial repair operations on residential grounds. This is bad, but is not really "anti repair" any more than not being allowed to operate a bar/food service business out of your own home.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- autorepair 6y ago
  Unfortunately the law is more draconian. The FAQ of the law provided by a comment below says 1. only minor repairs are explicitly allowed 2. only using tools found in a typical household. 3. it lists specific examples of what is allowed (brakes, oil, tire changes) and says all repairs must be like that 4. Must be in an enclosed space if the repair takes more than 24 hours (so no restoring an old beauty on your private driveway). Pretty much only trivial fixes are allowed. https://code-enforcement.saccounty.net/Programs/pages/autorepair.aspx https://code-enforcement.saccounty.net/Programs/pages/autore... https://code-enforcement.saccounty.net/Programs/pages/autorepair.aspx https://code-enforcement.saccounty.net/Programs/pages/autore...

dbg31415 6y ago

> When your stuff breaks, you should be able to fix it yourself. This concept is inherently flawed. These complex devices were built by teams of highly skilled and specialized engineers. The concept that you should be able to repair it with a screwdriver and a 6-pack is outdated. I grew up on a cattle ranch, and we had lots of tractors and equipment -- some of it over 100 years old. I rebuilt an International Farmall Model B Tractor with my Dad when I was 14. And it was a lot of fun to go around to old junk yards and find the parts we needed. This tractor was built in the 1940s and I think that's what people think of when they think tractors. I learned how clean an maintain simple engines, how to organize parts so I could confidently take something apart and put it back together again, how to bend and weld metal. It was a great project. Totally 100% think every kid should do something like this. When the tractor was done, and repainted, I got to drive it in a parade. When we were putting that tractor back together... a lot of times bolts needed to be cut, drilled out, holes re-tooled, or just welded back into place. And while it looked fine, there's no way someone should think we were professionals. I'd be scared if someone took that tractor and tried to do real work with it. There was one place in particular, where I used a bunch of bailing wire to hold a non-visible part where it needed to be held. And it worked OK for driving in a parade. But if someone had attached something to the PTO shaft... and it needed significant torque, I'm guessing the bailing wire MacGyver patch job would have caused catastrophic failure. And that's fine, if it happens as soon as you do it, but like, what if it happened while you were working in the field, or what if someone else (20+ years later) starts the tractor up and uses it -- not knowing that my splice is in place? It makes the machine fundamentally unreliable, unsafe. Now... that was an 80 years old tractor. Fast forward to today, when the machines have conservatively 1,000 times more power. Ranchers cut corners all the time... can't wait a week for parts? Just splice something. But how does the software know to account for that? It's expecting a load of 1,000 pounds and it adjusts hydraulics accordingly... but what if due to the "fix" it can now only support a load of 300 pounds? And let's say someone is hurt? Is that on John Deere? Or the Rancher who bought the tractor 2nd hand at an auction? Is that on the insurance company, that has to insure equipment that costs 10s if not 100s of thousands of dollars that get plugged into the tractor and rely on it operating to spec? It's just such a massive can of worms. So let's then add the software element. And assume that some fixes are going to not just be hardware, but software-related as well. Would that mean that John Deere, or Apple, or anyone, would have to make their code open-source -- for all of their competitors to review as well? Or provide peer review if you want to make a change? For how long? Like let's assume tractors today last as long as the tractor I rebuilt with my Dad in the 90s... 50 years? Wonder how you even factor in 1/2 a century of support in to the purchase cost. Oof. Anyway, it's just a mess. People over simplify it, "I should be able to fix my bike, so I should be able to fix this $500,000 tractor..." and at some point it just doesn't scale. And, like others have said... I really don't want to have to run my phone through some sort of unit testing / compliance check every time I go to get on an airplane. Batteries, and phone software... they're a whole other complex issue. Even what we have now, with 3rd Party batteries... it's pretty risky.

JoshTko 6y ago

Should software companies give access to source code so that users can fix bugs?

foobarbecue 6y ago
Yes
Lio 6y ago
This, I believe, was the original driver for Richard Stallman to start the GNU project. The story I heard him tell was about two printers at MIT. An old one with source code available which they were able to upgrade with many new network features. The other a modern one with better performance but closed source software. Stallman actually found out that a colleague had been given access to the source code but told explicitly not to allow other MIT staff to see it. That infuriated him enough to create the Free Software movement.
HomeDeLaPot 6y ago
Yes, depending on the audience. If it's a software library, it should be open source—devs are likely to benefit from reading the source, if not likely to contribute fixes. If it's some kind of SaaS or mobile app, maybe nobody will take the time to contribute anything worthwhile. But I would say iPhones and tractors are widely used, expensive, and have capable audiences, making them great candidates for right to repair/contribute/learn. John Deere and Apple have simply found that they can make more money by forcing users to come to them for repairs.

Ccecil 6y ago

I remember back when I was young opening up an older stereo my parents had and right inside was the schematic and wiring diagram for the whole machine. My father had a shop manual for his 1962 Ford Thunderbird and not only did it tell you how to fix it but it also showed how to make any needed "special tools" for the car. I am not saying every single thing in the world is going to be user serviced...but it is a shame that in such a high tech world with access to just about any hardware/information needed we are increasingly not being "allowed to". If we continue to allow qualified users to be stifled by DRM for the sake of increasing profits through planned obsolecence we are going to see greatly increased levels of ecological damage and waste. I remember a time where the worst case scenario of working on your own devices was simply voiding a warranty. It may seem like a modern tractor is a $500k machine which "simple folk" shouldn't work on...but don't forget the tractors of 50 years ago were viewed by outsiders the same way. Farmers have always been innovators of varying levels of skill...but they all have one thing in common, they don't seem to be scared of fixing stuff. IMHO, a well connected forum of tractor owners likely knows close to as much about their tractors as the company that made them...even without access to manuals. Limiting those who tinker and innovate can do no good. It is high time we change the slogan to "reduce, reuse, repair, recycle". The very last option should be recycling...not the second.

bluetwo 6y ago
I think of farmers as intuitive understanders of physics, chemistry, and biology. Manipulating these things is essentially what they do all day long.
ekianjo 6y ago
> f we continue to allow qualified users to be stifled by DRM for the sake of increasing profits through planned obsolecence we are going to see greatly increased levels of ecological damage and waste. Waste is one concern but there is also a hidden cost. Every curious person that we prevent from opening up or fixing their machine contributes to a net loss of innovation in the long run.
- justwalt 6y ago

doggydogs94 6y ago

Right to repair is great. Of course, 99% of us will end up bricking our phone if we tried to replace the screen or battery.

bogwog 6y ago
That's FUD
Lio 6y ago
We would like the right to take our phones to independent specialists to have them repair them with equivalent parts to the original where possible. It's the case that in the EU and UK (for now) that we can take our cars to qualified independent service centres without invalidating our warrantees. We want the same for our phones and other devices.
ma3gl1n 6y ago
I have a soft bricked Xiaomi phone with a locked bootloader. I haven't seen any need to unlock it, because I was fine with its OS (It is an AndroidOne phone with stock Android). One day the phone froze while I was listening to music, and upon a forced restart, it stuck on bootloop. An issue that should have been fairly easy to fix with a reset, or at worst with a reflash of the original ROM. But turned out that I could not do any of those with a locked bootloader. Later I've found out that Android phones have an "Emergency Download Mode" (EDL) that you can access by short-circuiting 2 test points on motherboard. Since I couldn't find a better option, I've opened my phone and tried to flash "the original", Xiaomi released ROM, but blocked yet again from doing so, because Xiaomi also locked the EDL mode. Only authorized Xiaomi personnel can flash "their" phones through EDL mode. I didn't know any of that when I bought my phone, there was zero mention for bootloaders on user manual, EDL lock was added after a software update (which I've learned years later, as it wasn't mentioned on release notes). So, my phone is waiting for benevolent hackers to find "exploits" in its bootloader to be usable again.

alert0 6y ago

A US law mandating right to repair could really improve domestic electronics knowledge and capability. So much of that work is out sourced to a foreign manufacturer, as rebuilding is cheaper than repairing. If consumers or even a handful of specialized shops had repair-level knowledge in micro electronics, it would set the stage for all sorts of innovation and new products.

megiddo 6y ago

How does this entire article have no references to the DMCA and copyright? Like, the ENTIRETY of the "right-to-repair" issue could be resolved by repealing the worst parts (or all of) the DMCA and updating copyright law with respect to machine code or object code to make it fair for buyers. If I buy a book, cut it up and make a collage, the original author can't claim copyright. Do the same with some object code, you break the law.