7 ms·

Moderation in Infrastructure

118 points by kaboro 6y ago

colllectorof 6y ago
Why should I care about what these CEOs are saying when recent history shows they a) gladly lie about this subject and b) suffer exactly zero consequences when caught lying about this subject?
- hctaw 6y ago
  It's useful to know what people are thinking when they are the ones making meaningful decisions. Even if you don't trust them to be honest (which I don't think is a valid criticism here, there's not much in the quoted text that could be construed as "lying"), if you want to take issue with their actions in the future or have insight into what they may/may not do it's useful to get something from the horse's mouth.
- draw_down 6y ago
  Lies are information too, of a sort. It matters which lie a person tells, for example.
maire 6y ago
Bertrand Russell was British. This is the difference between British law and American law. People often get confused with the definition of free speech since in America it refers to the 1st amendment which only applies to censorship by the government. Britain actually does allow the government to censor speech. The article does give insight into the Brit's definition of free speech. In America private companies can moderate their own platform since they are also liable for that platform. It is a thin line between the two. I am not sure which I prefer but I notice I get spooked when government gets involved in free speech. Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
- bstrand 6y ago
  The definition of free speech is not at all limited to the absence of legal constrictions. Russell addresses this quite directly in "Free Thought…": »When we speak of anything as “free,” our meaning is not definite unless we can say what it is free from. Whatever or whoever is “free” is not subject to some external compulsion, and to be precise we ought to say what this kind of compulsion is. … Legal penalties are, however, in the modern world, the least of the obstacles to freedom of thoughts. The two great obstacles are economic penalties and distortion of evidence. It is clear that thought is not free if the profession of certain opinions makes it impossible to earn a living. It is clear also that thought is not free if all the arguments on one side of a controversy are perpetually presented as attractively as possible, while the arguments on the other side can only be discovered by diligent search.«
  - maire 6y ago
    I see all the time in modern discussions that people use the same words but have different definitions in their head of what those words mean. It might be that in the UK when people say "Free Speech" they mean Bertrand Russell's definition. I give the article that leeway since I don't know. But in America when when people say "Free Speech" they mean the 1st Amendment which predated Bertrand Russell and is more common. When two people are communicating using common words the definition of those words need to be common otherwise communication does not happen. Otherwise you are just using jargon.
    - maire 6y ago
      This might be my imagination - but I think you changed "Free Speech" to "Freedom of Expression." If so, this change makes a lot of sense. This change captures the intent of your article without confusion.
    - nicoburns 6y ago
      > in America when when people say "Free Speech" they mean the 1st Amendment Isn't it quite presumtive of you to assume that everyone means the same thing by "Free Speech". That seems highly unlikely to me. > When two people are communicating using common words the definition of those words need to be common otherwise communication does not happen. Otherwise you are just using jargon. Yes, but that doesn't mean that words or phrases have a single globally umambiguous meaning. Typically maintaining productive communication means avoiding using contested/controversial terms like "free speech" in an unqualified way entirely and creating and exaplaining new terms to disambiguate exactly which version of the concept you mean.
unixhero 6y ago
Trump was an abomination and a troll. He should have been blocked from the platform a long time before he actually was deplatformed. The worls is a better place without thst eternal loser spewing lies out through Twitter. It's not okay.
- mlthoughts2018 6y ago
  It’s simply not possible to be a good human being and also downvote this. It’s absolutely on-topic, absolutely critical to the subject of Trump’s deplatforming, and absolutely irrefutable in terms of the facts of what the man has said and done. Anyone downvoting should be ashamed and sickened by their behavior, no matter what rationalization they are attempting to hide behind.
  - clairity 6y ago
    a person can think trump is a self-serving, sociopathic idiot, and still defend his humanness against inflammatory, repressive impulses like this. neoliberal media like npr and nyt have lost this perspective entirely and have thrown in with the pitchforkers, so it's unfortunately not surprising that this simplistic view has infiltrated this discussion. moreover, it's better for the future if we make the population aware of, and thereby immune to, his type of purely self-serving rhetoric, than try to erase him from the discussion, and thereby violate all kinds of human rights, let alone human decency. it's the same distinction as that of training an immune system for future infection vs. neutralizing one virus particle.
    - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
      Really, no. > a person can think trump is a self-serving, sociopathic idiot, and still defend his humanness against inflammatory, repressive impulses like this. You can do this, it just equates to a significant basic moral failing.
    - minikites 6y ago
      >his humanness Based on how he's treated everyone around him for his entire life, he doesn't have any. >it's better for the future if we make the population aware of, and thereby immune to, his type of purely self-serving rhetoric, than try to erase him from the discussion, and thereby violate all kinds of human rights Then why did threats and violence decline when he was deplatformed? Why did an insurrection happen on January 6th when he was on Twitter and why didn't one happen on March 4th (the other important date in this "conspiracy") when he wasn't on Twitter? I think you have your cause and effect backwards. Giving terrible people a platform doesn't inoculate anyone, it just spreads more poison. I don't need to be exposed to a particular prejudice to think that prejudice is bad.
naringas 6y ago
from a very broad conceptual viewpoint; "the law" exist from (or out of) written language (where "language" is seen as a social-technology). what computer technology and the internet (or for short: software) is doing to civilization is still at a very early stage. As I see this, the goal of "law" and the goal of "computer science" are quite similar. As I see these kinds of articles (stratechery focuses on exactly this), is that we're witnessing the 'adjustments' in society brought about by the invention of software. I put all of this on a level comparable to the invention of writing and the subsequent 'rise' of rule of law. having said this, the difficult thing to make sense of, and to explain to people with less software-experience is coming to understand what this article taps into in the section of "the global internet"; it's actually quite tricky to pin this down for me right now. I'm referring to that aspect (or quality) of software that causes several executives to say this kinds of things: >We have tried to get to what’s common, and the reality is it’s super hard on a global basis to design software that behaves differently in different countries. It is super difficult. >If you’re a global technology business, most of the time, it is far more efficient and legally compliant to operate a global model than to have different practices and standards in different countries. It's that thing sowftware does in which special cases worsen software complexity. Software (and computing, and even industrial automation) are all about doing the same thing, no matter what. It's all about finding ways to avoid special cases; to avoid code repetition; and all that. I'm sure that most people in Hacker News, due to our hands-on experience with software, are quite able to intuitively grasp this. But it's not so easy to explain and this 'quality of the digital' is (and will continue to) forcing contemporary capitalism to be re-evaluated (or something along these lines).
alexashka 6y ago
This is a bit of a meta point but does anyone else feel fatigued by the sheer amount of text stratechery has been using to make a point as of late? I'm an expert level skimmer and even I can't make sense of what this is about by simply skimming it. They taught me in highschool back in the day: make your point in an introduction, give supporting arguments in the body, conclude by repeating the point. This seems to follow a 'trail of thought' style that just keeps going, as if it's a given that everyone's got 30 minutes to spare to find out if you're saying anything at all. Trail of thought is fine for poetry and literature, this seems to attempt to make rational arguments? If so, the format's a disservice to that end.
- draw_down 6y ago
  Yeah, I know what you mean. I think it works for him though, his audience see themselves as "readers" and I think the prolixity adds a certain sheen of "seriousness" to his writing. I don't think he would hold the status of emerging thought-leader/authoritative thinker that he has in tech circles if he wrote quicker, punchier pieces.
dave_aiello 6y ago
I don't understand the lines that Patrick Collison, the CEO of Stripe, is trying to draw in this interview with Stratechery, https://stratechery.com/2021/interviews-with-patrick-collison-brad-smith-thomas-kurian-and-matthew-prince-on-moderation-in-infrastructure/#collison https://stratechery.com/2021/interviews-with-patrick-colliso.... I believe Collison's argument is that certain organizations affiliated with ex-President Trump should have been and were suspended from direct use of the Stripe API for "incitement to violence" in the time surrounding the certification of Electors by the U.S. Congress, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_St.... But other organizations that were allied in some way with Trump were still able to use the API. So in effect, the Trump-related organizations could use the API indirectly. With that reasoning, shouldn't there also be organizations on the left in the United States, which is defined as the progressive / liberal / socialist part of the political spectrum, that should have received the same treatment during the period of the George Floyd Protests, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests?
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  You’re expecting people to use the same standards for their ingroup as their outgroup. That rarely happens.
  - dave_aiello 6y ago
    Maybe it's because I'm a sports official in my spare time, but I want the rules to be the same for everybody. It doesn't matter if they are written or not. I just want there to be a clear standard in most cases and rule enforcement to be reasonably consistent, in all aspects of life.
kodah 6y ago
The whole free speech argument is tired. I think people selectively draw from it and draw lines in it when it suits them. The point being, that as long as people don't acknowledge that private entities play more of a role today in free speech than they did in the past, it's not worth arguing. You'll need to wait until both sides have been affected by this perspective for it to become taboo. A couple things I've been learning more recently in order to have more productive political discussions: - Set goals for political discussion. If it's just to learn, then you don't need to debate. If you're going to debate, set ground rules so cross-political friendships are not lost. (This has been more important to me, but there's certainly people who put their political leanings on their dating profile.) - Don't make points about bad faith actors or that collectively acknowledge their existence. The left has them, the right has them, we've likely all been affected by them, but the majority of each party are just normal people championing their favorite political football team. - Citing morals is pretty low brow. Morals differ in different geographies due to a myriad of influences. Topics that center around this are an impossible hill to climb. - Don't state your party affiliation (or lack thereof). I learned in 2016 that being anything other than Republican or Democrat invites reductive conversation, or put more directly it invites people to 'other' you which changes the trajectory of the conversation. - Always assume good faith. Most people don't act in bad faith, yet in political discussions it's easy to reach for that branch. People I've assumed this about I've usually discovered lived a very different life from me, so their perspectives and worldviews align to things that don't make sense at all.

118 points by kaboro 6y ago

Why should I care about what these CEOs are saying when recent history shows they a) gladly lie about this subject and b) suffer exactly zero consequences when caught lying about this subject?

hctaw 6y ago
It's useful to know what people are thinking when they are the ones making meaningful decisions. Even if you don't trust them to be honest (which I don't think is a valid criticism here, there's not much in the quoted text that could be construed as "lying"), if you want to take issue with their actions in the future or have insight into what they may/may not do it's useful to get something from the horse's mouth.
draw_down 6y ago
Lies are information too, of a sort. It matters which lie a person tells, for example.

maire 6y ago

Bertrand Russell was British. This is the difference between British law and American law. People often get confused with the definition of free speech since in America it refers to the 1st amendment which only applies to censorship by the government. Britain actually does allow the government to censor speech. The article does give insight into the Brit's definition of free speech. In America private companies can moderate their own platform since they are also liable for that platform. It is a thin line between the two. I am not sure which I prefer but I notice I get spooked when government gets involved in free speech. Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

bstrand 6y ago
The definition of free speech is not at all limited to the absence of legal constrictions. Russell addresses this quite directly in "Free Thought…": »When we speak of anything as “free,” our meaning is not definite unless we can say what it is free from. Whatever or whoever is “free” is not subject to some external compulsion, and to be precise we ought to say what this kind of compulsion is. … Legal penalties are, however, in the modern world, the least of the obstacles to freedom of thoughts. The two great obstacles are economic penalties and distortion of evidence. It is clear that thought is not free if the profession of certain opinions makes it impossible to earn a living. It is clear also that thought is not free if all the arguments on one side of a controversy are perpetually presented as attractively as possible, while the arguments on the other side can only be discovered by diligent search.«
- maire 6y ago
  I see all the time in modern discussions that people use the same words but have different definitions in their head of what those words mean. It might be that in the UK when people say "Free Speech" they mean Bertrand Russell's definition. I give the article that leeway since I don't know. But in America when when people say "Free Speech" they mean the 1st Amendment which predated Bertrand Russell and is more common. When two people are communicating using common words the definition of those words need to be common otherwise communication does not happen. Otherwise you are just using jargon.
  - maire 6y ago
    This might be my imagination - but I think you changed "Free Speech" to "Freedom of Expression." If so, this change makes a lot of sense. This change captures the intent of your article without confusion.
  - nicoburns 6y ago
    > in America when when people say "Free Speech" they mean the 1st Amendment Isn't it quite presumtive of you to assume that everyone means the same thing by "Free Speech". That seems highly unlikely to me. > When two people are communicating using common words the definition of those words need to be common otherwise communication does not happen. Otherwise you are just using jargon. Yes, but that doesn't mean that words or phrases have a single globally umambiguous meaning. Typically maintaining productive communication means avoiding using contested/controversial terms like "free speech" in an unqualified way entirely and creating and exaplaining new terms to disambiguate exactly which version of the concept you mean.

unixhero 6y ago

Trump was an abomination and a troll. He should have been blocked from the platform a long time before he actually was deplatformed. The worls is a better place without thst eternal loser spewing lies out through Twitter. It's not okay.

mlthoughts2018 6y ago
It’s simply not possible to be a good human being and also downvote this. It’s absolutely on-topic, absolutely critical to the subject of Trump’s deplatforming, and absolutely irrefutable in terms of the facts of what the man has said and done. Anyone downvoting should be ashamed and sickened by their behavior, no matter what rationalization they are attempting to hide behind.
- clairity 6y ago
  a person can think trump is a self-serving, sociopathic idiot, and still defend his humanness against inflammatory, repressive impulses like this. neoliberal media like npr and nyt have lost this perspective entirely and have thrown in with the pitchforkers, so it's unfortunately not surprising that this simplistic view has infiltrated this discussion. moreover, it's better for the future if we make the population aware of, and thereby immune to, his type of purely self-serving rhetoric, than try to erase him from the discussion, and thereby violate all kinds of human rights, let alone human decency. it's the same distinction as that of training an immune system for future infection vs. neutralizing one virus particle.
  - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
    Really, no. > a person can think trump is a self-serving, sociopathic idiot, and still defend his humanness against inflammatory, repressive impulses like this. You can do this, it just equates to a significant basic moral failing.
  - minikites 6y ago
    >his humanness Based on how he's treated everyone around him for his entire life, he doesn't have any. >it's better for the future if we make the population aware of, and thereby immune to, his type of purely self-serving rhetoric, than try to erase him from the discussion, and thereby violate all kinds of human rights Then why did threats and violence decline when he was deplatformed? Why did an insurrection happen on January 6th when he was on Twitter and why didn't one happen on March 4th (the other important date in this "conspiracy") when he wasn't on Twitter? I think you have your cause and effect backwards. Giving terrible people a platform doesn't inoculate anyone, it just spreads more poison. I don't need to be exposed to a particular prejudice to think that prejudice is bad.

naringas 6y ago

from a very broad conceptual viewpoint; "the law" exist from (or out of) written language (where "language" is seen as a social-technology). what computer technology and the internet (or for short: software) is doing to civilization is still at a very early stage. As I see this, the goal of "law" and the goal of "computer science" are quite similar. As I see these kinds of articles (stratechery focuses on exactly this), is that we're witnessing the 'adjustments' in society brought about by the invention of software. I put all of this on a level comparable to the invention of writing and the subsequent 'rise' of rule of law. having said this, the difficult thing to make sense of, and to explain to people with less software-experience is coming to understand what this article taps into in the section of "the global internet"; it's actually quite tricky to pin this down for me right now. I'm referring to that aspect (or quality) of software that causes several executives to say this kinds of things: >We have tried to get to what’s common, and the reality is it’s super hard on a global basis to design software that behaves differently in different countries. It is super difficult. >If you’re a global technology business, most of the time, it is far more efficient and legally compliant to operate a global model than to have different practices and standards in different countries. It's that thing sowftware does in which special cases worsen software complexity. Software (and computing, and even industrial automation) are all about doing the same thing, no matter what. It's all about finding ways to avoid special cases; to avoid code repetition; and all that. I'm sure that most people in Hacker News, due to our hands-on experience with software, are quite able to intuitively grasp this. But it's not so easy to explain and this 'quality of the digital' is (and will continue to) forcing contemporary capitalism to be re-evaluated (or something along these lines).

alexashka 6y ago

This is a bit of a meta point but does anyone else feel fatigued by the sheer amount of text stratechery has been using to make a point as of late? I'm an expert level skimmer and even I can't make sense of what this is about by simply skimming it. They taught me in highschool back in the day: make your point in an introduction, give supporting arguments in the body, conclude by repeating the point. This seems to follow a 'trail of thought' style that just keeps going, as if it's a given that everyone's got 30 minutes to spare to find out if you're saying anything at all. Trail of thought is fine for poetry and literature, this seems to attempt to make rational arguments? If so, the format's a disservice to that end.

draw_down 6y ago
Yeah, I know what you mean. I think it works for him though, his audience see themselves as "readers" and I think the prolixity adds a certain sheen of "seriousness" to his writing. I don't think he would hold the status of emerging thought-leader/authoritative thinker that he has in tech circles if he wrote quicker, punchier pieces.

dave_aiello 6y ago

I don't understand the lines that Patrick Collison, the CEO of Stripe, is trying to draw in this interview with Stratechery, https://stratechery.com/2021/interviews-with-patrick-collison-brad-smith-thomas-kurian-and-matthew-prince-on-moderation-in-infrastructure/#collison https://stratechery.com/2021/interviews-with-patrick-colliso.... I believe Collison's argument is that certain organizations affiliated with ex-President Trump should have been and were suspended from direct use of the Stripe API for "incitement to violence" in the time surrounding the certification of Electors by the U.S. Congress, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_St.... But other organizations that were allied in some way with Trump were still able to use the API. So in effect, the Trump-related organizations could use the API indirectly. With that reasoning, shouldn't there also be organizations on the left in the United States, which is defined as the progressive / liberal / socialist part of the political spectrum, that should have received the same treatment during the period of the George Floyd Protests, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests?

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
You’re expecting people to use the same standards for their ingroup as their outgroup. That rarely happens.
- dave_aiello 6y ago
  Maybe it's because I'm a sports official in my spare time, but I want the rules to be the same for everybody. It doesn't matter if they are written or not. I just want there to be a clear standard in most cases and rule enforcement to be reasonably consistent, in all aspects of life.

kodah 6y ago

The whole free speech argument is tired. I think people selectively draw from it and draw lines in it when it suits them. The point being, that as long as people don't acknowledge that private entities play more of a role today in free speech than they did in the past, it's not worth arguing. You'll need to wait until both sides have been affected by this perspective for it to become taboo. A couple things I've been learning more recently in order to have more productive political discussions: - Set goals for political discussion. If it's just to learn, then you don't need to debate. If you're going to debate, set ground rules so cross-political friendships are not lost. (This has been more important to me, but there's certainly people who put their political leanings on their dating profile.) - Don't make points about bad faith actors or that collectively acknowledge their existence. The left has them, the right has them, we've likely all been affected by them, but the majority of each party are just normal people championing their favorite political football team. - Citing morals is pretty low brow. Morals differ in different geographies due to a myriad of influences. Topics that center around this are an impossible hill to climb. - Don't state your party affiliation (or lack thereof). I learned in 2016 that being anything other than Republican or Democrat invites reductive conversation, or put more directly it invites people to 'other' you which changes the trajectory of the conversation. - Always assume good faith. Most people don't act in bad faith, yet in political discussions it's easy to reach for that branch. People I've assumed this about I've usually discovered lived a very different life from me, so their perspectives and worldviews align to things that don't make sense at all.