17 ms·

Looks like this may be a bit more relevant than many of the snarky comments would suggest - the relevant German authority on this said that they have seen a une

by fab1an 6y ago

Looks like this may be a bit more relevant than many of the snarky comments would suggest - the relevant German authority on this said that they have seen a unexpected increase in a specific type of blood clotting issue that usually is very rare: https://www.pei.de/DE/newsroom/hp-meldungen/2021/210315-voruebergehende-aussetzung-impfung-covid-19-impfstoff-astra-zeneca.html;jsessionid=0A4D9FE5C5CDCC1653D879D8FE82082E.intranet211 https://www.pei.de/DE/newsroom/hp-meldungen/2021/210315-voru...

Rochus 6y ago
From the article: Compared to the status of 11.03.2021, additional cases (as of Monday, 15.03.2021) have now been reported in Germany. In the analysis of the new data status, the experts of the Paul Ehrlich Institute now see a striking accumulation of a special form of very rare cerebral vein thrombosis (sinus vein thrombosis) in conjunction with a deficiency of blood platelets (thrombocytopenia) and bleeding in temporal proximity to vaccinations with the COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
- elboulangero 6y ago
  There's an English version straight on their site, no need for a translator: https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-news/2021/210315-pei-informs-temporary-suspension-vaccination-astra-zeneca.html https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-news/2021/210315-pei-infor...
  - Rochus 6y ago
    Looks like they have used DeepL as well ;-)
refraincomment 6y ago
Okay, so they looked for correlations with a million conditions and when they found a vaguely significant one they automatically suspended the vaccination campaign prolonging by days or weeks the national lockdown.
raducu 6y ago
I'm set to take the oxford d vaccine, but I could also take the pfizer vaccine. I've had elevated blood markers for clotting during covid-19, and now I hear of this. I'm thinking of taking 75 mg aspirin, before and after the vaccine. On the other hand, the issue is the patients have low platelet count and I understand that this is the way aspirin reduces blod clotting. So, do these patients have low platelet count because they had blod clots, or the other way around? Afik, in the case of COVID-19, clotting is an autoimune issue, so perhaps the clotting is not something related to the astra Zeneca vaccine, but something about the immune response itself.
- libertine 6y ago
  You should talk to your doctor and not self prescribe yourself.
- qbasic_forever 6y ago
  Talk to your doctor before making decisions. Taking aspirin right before a vaccine might not be a good idea as it can blunt your immune system response, but the whole point of a vaccine is to elicit a strong immune response that builds memory. I know acetaminophen is specifically mentioned as something not to take right before the COVID-19 vaccines (and afterwards, if you can deal with the immune response naturally).
  - shortandsweet 6y ago
    I'm not a doctor but I can tell you what they will say and save op $200 for a useless visit. Doctor will mention there's no data and does not recommend it.
  - HenryBemis 6y ago
    >can blunt your immune system response (Not a doctor) From listening to the "Faucis" of various countries (incuding the original): I believe that the vaccine is not a watered down virus, so technically you are not making yourself vulnerable/more sensitive to the virus. It is suppsed to 'teach' your body how to build the defence. Only the Chinese virus is a 'watered down' version of the virus. All the others (including the Russian) is an RNA-type-thingie.
est31 6y ago
Is that the real reason? In times of crisis one must be wary of propaganda. AstraZeneca has recently announced they'd deliver even less to the EU because of Italy's interception of the delivery headed to Australia [0]... Europe having to halt the vaccinations with AstraZeneca due to none being in stock makes europe lose far more face than halting them because of quality concerns... [0]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/astrazeneca-warns-europe-of-large-delivery-shortfall-blaming-export-curbs-11615582482 https://www.wsj.com/articles/astrazeneca-warns-europe-of-lar...
- johannes1234321 6y ago
  The Paul Ehrlich Institut is an independent scientific institute, who make suggestions based on science. Of course they are influenced by what they see in the news and questions by the government, but aren't a political player. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ehrlich_Institute https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ehrlich_Institute
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > The Paul Ehrlich Institute (German: Paul-Ehrlich-Institut – Bundesinstitut für Impfstoffe und biomedizinische Arzneimittel, PEI) is a German research institution and medical regulatory body, and is the German federal institute for vaccines and biomedicines. It is a federal agency and subordinate to the Federal Ministry of Health. They are hopefully scientific, but they are definitely not independent, not even by name.
    - johannes1234321 6y ago
      It is, according to the law (Gesetz über das Bundesinstitut für Impfstoffe und biomedizinische Arzneimittel) a "selbstständige Bundesbehörde" and true, it is not independent as a judge and not independent as public broadcasters, but its not a mere department of the ministry directly tied to the political will of the minister, but bound to its task by law.
- patrickmcnamara 6y ago
sradman 6y ago
> The EMA has said that as of March 10, a total of 30 cases of blood clotting had been reported among close to 5 million people vaccinated with the AstraZeneca shot in the European Economic Area, which links 30 European countries. "The decision today is purely precautionary..." given this level of signal. We don't have details on the age groups involved and the normal rates expected but I can hazard a Fermi Estimate that the risk is minuscule compared to COVID-19 itself. I look forward to seeing the actual data in coming days/weeks. Precaution without downside is acceptable; this is not one of those cases, IMO. YMMV.
- detaro 6y ago
  And the press statement says that this is based on new data compared to when they looked at it on the 11th. Hope we'll see what that is.
- ArkanExplorer 6y ago
  Surely more people will die from COVID than from blood clotting, due to this delay? Or perhaps not, given that 2020 deaths in Germany were 985,145, only 4.85% higher than 2019, and only 3.2% higher than 2018 (and so basically in line with what we would expect from an aging society). https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Bevoelkerung/Sterbefaelle-Lebenserwartung/Tabellen/sonderauswertung-sterbefaelle.html?nn=23768 https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Bevoel...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - libertine 6y ago
    You're missing the point. This is an anomaly. It's not about the "oh it's worth the risk compared to COVID 19". If it's a side effect it wasn't spotted in the trials, why was that? It's not a side effect? It was a problem in production? What problem? Was is tampered with or was an accident? What failed in QA to let that batch come to the public? Was is a storage problem that compromised the batch quality? Was it while in transport or in the local hospital? You talk about this like background noise. It's not. It should be investigated. It's good that this is happening, because it shows regulators are doing their job. This is what builds trust in vaccines, not disregarding odd occurrences because they seem to have no "statistical relevance". That's just ignorance talking.
draw_down 6y ago
Seems reasonable that a covid vaccine (which were developed much more rapidly than any vaccines before) could have problems. But to say so is painted as "anti-vaxxer" talk, conspiracy theory, you hate public health, you're killing grandma, etc.
nradov 6y ago
Is there any correlation with ABO blood type? Usually non-O blood types are more prone to clotting disorders.
2ion 6y ago
It's not a medically reasonable response that solicits snarky remarks, it's the complete retardation of the official covid response so far, and even reasonable decisions just are landing on a pile of steaming crap now. - billions per week of half assed lockdown vs a few billion more for high quality timeley vaccine delivieries of the good stuff --- of course they chose the lockdown - open schools as if nothing happens vs using UV-based air filtering machines and so on as a minimum level of precaution --- of course they choose to open schools with classrooms some of which even don't have windows that can be opened properly - governing party members of parliament scamming the public out of money by selling overly expensive, low quality masks - minister of health busy sueing newspapers for disclosing prices on his million dollar real estate purchases vs minister of health actually being busy 24/7 with fighting the crisis the list goes "on and on and on", these are just the most popular ones right now. It's just a dumpster fire at this point and the positives will not be recognized divorced from said pile of crap.
- xiphias2 6y ago
  This is the best time for politicians to steal money, as people are unable to go to the street to do demonstrations. Polititians are stuck between trying to make the free-for-all phase as long as possible, but still look as though they did everything to help, so that they can win the next election.
- geff82 6y ago
  Let's not forget that the German government resorts to "alternative facts" since the pandemic began just as they see fit. When we had nor masks available last march, they said "masks are useless" two months later they were mandatory "because they are the best thing we have". Recently, a post by the government on Facebook said "AstraZeneca gave us one of the best vaccines ever" just as people started to cancel their appointments when they saw that their vaccine was going to be from AstraZeneca. Now they pause vaccination with it. Yeah.
  - nabeelms 6y ago
    I'm not aware what exactly the German government has said in the past w.r.t mask usage. However, governments claiming mask usage was not required near the start of the pandemic followed by them later requiring people to use masks was actually an understandable decision on their part from what I've understood of the situation as it unveiled. At the beginning of the pandemic, it was believed that the virus was using droplet transmission alone. In such a scenario, surgical masks, for the general public, would only be required in people who were sick to prevent transmission and N95 masks would primarily be required by health care workers. Considering the mask shortages faced in many countries at the time due to panic buying, the communications made by governments to the public w.r.t the benefits of masks make sense from a cost benefit perspective since it would guarantee that the people who needed the masks the most (medical workers and sick people) would receive them and reduce the spread of the virus. Fast forward 2 months later, airborne transmission as well as asymptomatic transmission of the virus were both confirmed independently in several labs. This would mean that the prior strategy of only using surgical masks on sick people wouldn't really work well anymore. In the meanwhile, the availability of masks was much higher due to increased production. Hence, to reduce the risks of airborne and asymptomatic transmissions, governments released advisories asking all people to wear masks.
Gatsky 6y ago
Yes, cerebral venous sinus thrombosis, exceedingly rare condition in the general population. It can cause permanent neurological disability and death if not diagnosed and treated. Cerebral venous sinus thrombosis presents with nonspecific symptoms (eg headaches). It can only be diagnosed with cerebral imaging of specific modalities (CT or MR brain venogram, expensive and specialised tests). From speaking to colleagues in the UK, their hospital system is quite overwhelmed and doctors are repurposed outside their field (eg surgeons looking after internal medicine patients). It is quite possible in the throes of a pandemic to be underestimating the incidence of this condition in the UK.
theptip 6y ago
Notably, from the PDF linked there: > Birth control pills can also cause thrombosis. So why is there all the fuss about the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca? It is true that for birth control pills thromboses, even with fatal outcome, are known as a very rare side effect. They are listed in the Summary of Product Characteristics (SmPC). The birth control pill is available only on prescription. Every woman must be informed of this risk by the prescribing physician. For the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, there is currently a suspected very rare side effect of sinus vein thrombosis with accompanying platelet deficiency, sometimes fatal. It is not listed in the SmPC. The consideration of whether the vaccine can continue to be used even though it may cause this very rare side effect (if necessary, after this risk has been added to the SmPC) will be made at the European level by the European Medicines Agency (EMA) and at the national level by politicians. The procedure has been initiated. Which sounds pretty clearly like bureaucratic CYA instead of an actual cost/benefit analysis that takes into account the excess deaths that are now being caused due to pausing the vaccine rollout. "This potential side-effect is not listed in the SmPC so we need to pause vaccinations", ignoring the fact that hundreds of people are dying every day in Germany (https://www.google.com/search?q=germany+covid+case+fatality+rate&oq=germany+covid+case+fatality+rate&aqs=chrome..69i57.6488j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=germany+covid+case+fatality+...).

by fab1an 6y ago

Rochus 6y ago

From the article: Compared to the status of 11.03.2021, additional cases (as of Monday, 15.03.2021) have now been reported in Germany. In the analysis of the new data status, the experts of the Paul Ehrlich Institute now see a striking accumulation of a special form of very rare cerebral vein thrombosis (sinus vein thrombosis) in conjunction with a deficiency of blood platelets (thrombocytopenia) and bleeding in temporal proximity to vaccinations with the COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

elboulangero 6y ago
There's an English version straight on their site, no need for a translator: https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-news/2021/210315-pei-informs-temporary-suspension-vaccination-astra-zeneca.html https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-news/2021/210315-pei-infor...
- Rochus 6y ago
  Looks like they have used DeepL as well ;-)

refraincomment 6y ago

Okay, so they looked for correlations with a million conditions and when they found a vaguely significant one they automatically suspended the vaccination campaign prolonging by days or weeks the national lockdown.

raducu 6y ago

I'm set to take the oxford d vaccine, but I could also take the pfizer vaccine. I've had elevated blood markers for clotting during covid-19, and now I hear of this. I'm thinking of taking 75 mg aspirin, before and after the vaccine. On the other hand, the issue is the patients have low platelet count and I understand that this is the way aspirin reduces blod clotting. So, do these patients have low platelet count because they had blod clots, or the other way around? Afik, in the case of COVID-19, clotting is an autoimune issue, so perhaps the clotting is not something related to the astra Zeneca vaccine, but something about the immune response itself.

libertine 6y ago
You should talk to your doctor and not self prescribe yourself.
qbasic_forever 6y ago
Talk to your doctor before making decisions. Taking aspirin right before a vaccine might not be a good idea as it can blunt your immune system response, but the whole point of a vaccine is to elicit a strong immune response that builds memory. I know acetaminophen is specifically mentioned as something not to take right before the COVID-19 vaccines (and afterwards, if you can deal with the immune response naturally).
- shortandsweet 6y ago
  I'm not a doctor but I can tell you what they will say and save op $200 for a useless visit. Doctor will mention there's no data and does not recommend it.
- HenryBemis 6y ago
  >can blunt your immune system response (Not a doctor) From listening to the "Faucis" of various countries (incuding the original): I believe that the vaccine is not a watered down virus, so technically you are not making yourself vulnerable/more sensitive to the virus. It is suppsed to 'teach' your body how to build the defence. Only the Chinese virus is a 'watered down' version of the virus. All the others (including the Russian) is an RNA-type-thingie.

est31 6y ago

Is that the real reason? In times of crisis one must be wary of propaganda. AstraZeneca has recently announced they'd deliver even less to the EU because of Italy's interception of the delivery headed to Australia [0]... Europe having to halt the vaccinations with AstraZeneca due to none being in stock makes europe lose far more face than halting them because of quality concerns... [0]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/astrazeneca-warns-europe-of-large-delivery-shortfall-blaming-export-curbs-11615582482 https://www.wsj.com/articles/astrazeneca-warns-europe-of-lar...

johannes1234321 6y ago
The Paul Ehrlich Institut is an independent scientific institute, who make suggestions based on science. Of course they are influenced by what they see in the news and questions by the government, but aren't a political player. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ehrlich_Institute https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ehrlich_Institute
- luckylion 6y ago
  > The Paul Ehrlich Institute (German: Paul-Ehrlich-Institut – Bundesinstitut für Impfstoffe und biomedizinische Arzneimittel, PEI) is a German research institution and medical regulatory body, and is the German federal institute for vaccines and biomedicines. It is a federal agency and subordinate to the Federal Ministry of Health. They are hopefully scientific, but they are definitely not independent, not even by name.
  - johannes1234321 6y ago
    It is, according to the law (Gesetz über das Bundesinstitut für Impfstoffe und biomedizinische Arzneimittel) a "selbstständige Bundesbehörde" and true, it is not independent as a judge and not independent as public broadcasters, but its not a mere department of the ministry directly tied to the political will of the minister, but bound to its task by law.
patrickmcnamara 6y ago

sradman 6y ago

> The EMA has said that as of March 10, a total of 30 cases of blood clotting had been reported among close to 5 million people vaccinated with the AstraZeneca shot in the European Economic Area, which links 30 European countries. "The decision today is purely precautionary..." given this level of signal. We don't have details on the age groups involved and the normal rates expected but I can hazard a Fermi Estimate that the risk is minuscule compared to COVID-19 itself. I look forward to seeing the actual data in coming days/weeks. Precaution without downside is acceptable; this is not one of those cases, IMO. YMMV.

detaro 6y ago
And the press statement says that this is based on new data compared to when they looked at it on the 11th. Hope we'll see what that is.
ArkanExplorer 6y ago
Surely more people will die from COVID than from blood clotting, due to this delay? Or perhaps not, given that 2020 deaths in Germany were 985,145, only 4.85% higher than 2019, and only 3.2% higher than 2018 (and so basically in line with what we would expect from an aging society). https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Bevoelkerung/Sterbefaelle-Lebenserwartung/Tabellen/sonderauswertung-sterbefaelle.html?nn=23768 https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Bevoel...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- libertine 6y ago
  You're missing the point. This is an anomaly. It's not about the "oh it's worth the risk compared to COVID 19". If it's a side effect it wasn't spotted in the trials, why was that? It's not a side effect? It was a problem in production? What problem? Was is tampered with or was an accident? What failed in QA to let that batch come to the public? Was is a storage problem that compromised the batch quality? Was it while in transport or in the local hospital? You talk about this like background noise. It's not. It should be investigated. It's good that this is happening, because it shows regulators are doing their job. This is what builds trust in vaccines, not disregarding odd occurrences because they seem to have no "statistical relevance". That's just ignorance talking.

draw_down 6y ago

Seems reasonable that a covid vaccine (which were developed much more rapidly than any vaccines before) could have problems. But to say so is painted as "anti-vaxxer" talk, conspiracy theory, you hate public health, you're killing grandma, etc.

nradov 6y ago

Is there any correlation with ABO blood type? Usually non-O blood types are more prone to clotting disorders.

2ion 6y ago

It's not a medically reasonable response that solicits snarky remarks, it's the complete retardation of the official covid response so far, and even reasonable decisions just are landing on a pile of steaming crap now. - billions per week of half assed lockdown vs a few billion more for high quality timeley vaccine delivieries of the good stuff --- of course they chose the lockdown - open schools as if nothing happens vs using UV-based air filtering machines and so on as a minimum level of precaution --- of course they choose to open schools with classrooms some of which even don't have windows that can be opened properly - governing party members of parliament scamming the public out of money by selling overly expensive, low quality masks - minister of health busy sueing newspapers for disclosing prices on his million dollar real estate purchases vs minister of health actually being busy 24/7 with fighting the crisis the list goes "on and on and on", these are just the most popular ones right now. It's just a dumpster fire at this point and the positives will not be recognized divorced from said pile of crap.

xiphias2 6y ago
This is the best time for politicians to steal money, as people are unable to go to the street to do demonstrations. Polititians are stuck between trying to make the free-for-all phase as long as possible, but still look as though they did everything to help, so that they can win the next election.
geff82 6y ago
Let's not forget that the German government resorts to "alternative facts" since the pandemic began just as they see fit. When we had nor masks available last march, they said "masks are useless" two months later they were mandatory "because they are the best thing we have". Recently, a post by the government on Facebook said "AstraZeneca gave us one of the best vaccines ever" just as people started to cancel their appointments when they saw that their vaccine was going to be from AstraZeneca. Now they pause vaccination with it. Yeah.
- nabeelms 6y ago
  I'm not aware what exactly the German government has said in the past w.r.t mask usage. However, governments claiming mask usage was not required near the start of the pandemic followed by them later requiring people to use masks was actually an understandable decision on their part from what I've understood of the situation as it unveiled. At the beginning of the pandemic, it was believed that the virus was using droplet transmission alone. In such a scenario, surgical masks, for the general public, would only be required in people who were sick to prevent transmission and N95 masks would primarily be required by health care workers. Considering the mask shortages faced in many countries at the time due to panic buying, the communications made by governments to the public w.r.t the benefits of masks make sense from a cost benefit perspective since it would guarantee that the people who needed the masks the most (medical workers and sick people) would receive them and reduce the spread of the virus. Fast forward 2 months later, airborne transmission as well as asymptomatic transmission of the virus were both confirmed independently in several labs. This would mean that the prior strategy of only using surgical masks on sick people wouldn't really work well anymore. In the meanwhile, the availability of masks was much higher due to increased production. Hence, to reduce the risks of airborne and asymptomatic transmissions, governments released advisories asking all people to wear masks.

Gatsky 6y ago

Yes, cerebral venous sinus thrombosis, exceedingly rare condition in the general population. It can cause permanent neurological disability and death if not diagnosed and treated. Cerebral venous sinus thrombosis presents with nonspecific symptoms (eg headaches). It can only be diagnosed with cerebral imaging of specific modalities (CT or MR brain venogram, expensive and specialised tests). From speaking to colleagues in the UK, their hospital system is quite overwhelmed and doctors are repurposed outside their field (eg surgeons looking after internal medicine patients). It is quite possible in the throes of a pandemic to be underestimating the incidence of this condition in the UK.

theptip 6y ago

Notably, from the PDF linked there: > Birth control pills can also cause thrombosis. So why is there all the fuss about the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca? It is true that for birth control pills thromboses, even with fatal outcome, are known as a very rare side effect. They are listed in the Summary of Product Characteristics (SmPC). The birth control pill is available only on prescription. Every woman must be informed of this risk by the prescribing physician. For the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, there is currently a suspected very rare side effect of sinus vein thrombosis with accompanying platelet deficiency, sometimes fatal. It is not listed in the SmPC. The consideration of whether the vaccine can continue to be used even though it may cause this very rare side effect (if necessary, after this risk has been added to the SmPC) will be made at the European level by the European Medicines Agency (EMA) and at the national level by politicians. The procedure has been initiated. Which sounds pretty clearly like bureaucratic CYA instead of an actual cost/benefit analysis that takes into account the excess deaths that are now being caused due to pausing the vaccine rollout. "This potential side-effect is not listed in the SmPC so we need to pause vaccinations", ignoring the fact that hundreds of people are dying every day in Germany (https://www.google.com/search?q=germany+covid+case+fatality+rate&oq=germany+covid+case+fatality+rate&aqs=chrome..69i57.6488j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=germany+covid+case+fatality+...).