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I don't get it. The wording of the bugzilla specifically says > The "Compact" density is a feature of the "Customize toolbar" view which is currently fairly

I don't get it. The wording of the bugzilla specifically says > The "Compact" density is a feature of the "Customize toolbar" view which is currently fairly hard to discover, and we assume gets low engagement. So not only do they not have telemetry for that, they aren't even attempting to make it more discoverable to test if there's a correlation between "hard to discover" and "low engagement"? I would use this but never knew this could be changed.

cout 6y ago
> I would use this but never knew this could be changed. Same here, but since it affects both the toolbar and the tab bar, I'm inclined to keep the density set to Normal except on small screens.
kevincox 6y ago
That is the most messed up reasoning I have ever heard. "We will remove this feature because we didn't promote it well." It might be a crazy idea, but maybe we could add telemetry and see if people actually use it despite it being hard to discover.
- klyrs 6y ago
  Yes, that idea is nonsensical. The reason I use FF is because they're fighting tracking and telemetry. Not so they can spy on me.
  - spijdar 6y ago
    Firefox has telemetry, it just doesn't gather data on this feature. It does gather: Interaction data includes information about your interactions with Firefox such as number of open tabs and windows, number of webpages visited, number and type of installed Firefox Add-ons and session length, as well as Firefox features offered by Mozilla or our partners such as interaction with Firefox search features and search partner referrals. [0] I don't think telling if the compact UI was enabled is more invasive than this data. [0] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/telemetry-clientid https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/telemetry-clientid
    - klyrs 6y ago
      I opt out. I assume people inclined to tweak their FF settings are more likely to opt out than those who don't. By definition, I guess. So that's gonna spoil whatever statistics you want out of this.
      - nanis 6y ago
        > I opt out. Then there was the issue of "studies"[1]. [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/bl035o/what_are_these_studies_anyway/ https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/bl035o/what_are_th...
wlesieutre 6y ago
I wish gecko/servo were separated enough from Firefox that we had other browser options built around it, with features like native sidebar tabs and compact mode. I've tried to stick with Firefox because I don't love Google owning the hugely dominant browser engine, but Mozilla isn't making it easy for me. Looks increasingly nice across the pond with Edgeium, Vivaldi, Brave, etc. Is servo even still in development? I know bits and pieces of the project have made their way into Firefox, but I'm not sure where that stands after the layoffs last year.
- freebuju 6y ago
  They fired all the Servo devs. (And) probably increased their CEOs annual salary and bonuses. At this point, Mozilla is just hell-bent on a path to completely destroying whatever's left of Firefox. It being the only non-Blink browser alternative left is no longer a valid excuse.
  - dralley 6y ago
    I've contributed to Servo, compiled it, used it, etc. The parts of Servo that were not already merged into Firefox (like Stylo and WebRender) had no clear path to being merged into Firefox within the next few years. I'm really, really sad that they were laid off, but in terms of the future survival of Firefox, it wasn't a catastrophic decision.
  - smolder 6y ago
    I've seen this kind of thing happen before, where the underdog in some area develops a kind of self-doubt about the ways they are different. Unique advantages get mistaken for liabilities and then the underdog degrades into a weak immitation.
  - jdlshore 6y ago
    >(And) probably increased their CEOs annual salary and bonuses. Please don't post this kind of cynical speculation unless you have something to back it up.
    - deleted 6y ago
lucideer 6y ago
I use this feature as the UI takes a lot of space, and it would be bother me quite noticeably were it removed. However, I understand that maintaining features & options can incur costs, which may not be worthwhile if they're not widely used. So I'd be happy to accept the inconvenience if I knew that I was in a minority. Stunned to see that's not the case, and completely baffled at how contradictory and indicative of incompetence this stated reasoning is.
- binwang 6y ago
  Same here. I also find this reasoning very disturbing and discouraging, even though I can live without this feature, and will most likely continue using FF after this change lands.
- userbinator 6y ago
  However, I understand that maintaining features & options can incur costs, Don't be persuaded by that argument unless you have a good idea of what the actual costs are --- especially when the one making the argument is also spending what is almost certainly a lot more on new features that almost no one cares about.
AlexandrB 6y ago
Modern telemetry is a plague on power users. Imagine if Vim made product decisions around which features get the most use.
- jsty 6y ago
  Every new Vim instance would show instructions on how to :q and a million StackOverflow posts would become redundant
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    Neovim startup page looks like this now: NVIM v0.4.3 Nvim is open source and freely distributable https://neovim.io/#chat type :help nvim<Enter> if you are new! type :checkhealth<Enter> to optimize Nvim type :q<Enter> to exit type :help<Enter> for help Become a registered Vim user! type :help register<Enter> for information I imagine vim is similar
    - deathanatos 6y ago
      It is. You can also hit ^C, and it will prompt you with instructions.
  - andrewzah 6y ago
    Vim (at least v8.1.1401) already does that. type :q<Enter> to exit type :help<Enter> or <F1> for on-line help type :help version8<Enter> for version info As the sibling comment noted, neovim also has something similar.
Macha 6y ago
Also the touch scale, also only discoverable through that same UI widget, is not up for removal.
- olejorgenb 6y ago
  Yes and if touch mode remains a simple "x times more padding" variant (like it's today) it's a bit hard to see how ditching compact mode would save much code complexity...
mmcdermott 6y ago
Same here. I didn't know this was in Firefox, saw this article, went and tried it. I think I'll leave it that way (until the feature goes away) because I prefer leaving space for content. I use the keyboard to focus on the url bar anyway, so the smaller size doesn't hurt me.
danjac 6y ago
"Nobody visited the restaurant that we decided to build in the middle of nowhere and never advertised, so obviously it failed and we closed it down."
- kilburn 6y ago
  Correction: "We built a restaurant in the middle of nowhere and never advertised it. We don't have the numbers but it seems fair to assume that nobody goes there so we'll be closing it down." The important missing part in your analogy is that they don't even know if people use it or not!
  - postalrat 6y ago
    Even if they knew how many people are using it they still wouldn't know if more people wanted to use it.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
JaggedJax 6y ago
It seems no one really read through the bugzilla ticket. Three days ago after this got attention Mozilla both added telemetry to collect usage stats [1] and plan to run an experiment with the new proton UI [2] to determine what density users prefer and make discovery easier. This is not yet finalized/decided and a great big thanks to the Firefox devs for listening to the feedback and collecting real information before making a final decision. [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1698100 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1698100 [2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1698171 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1698171
- KallDrexx 6y ago
  Thanks for this. I didn't read the comments so that's good to know :)
FounderBurr 6y ago
This is the exact same language they used to justify removing RSS support so they could push their Pocket(tm) product. Glad I left, won’t be back.

cout 6y ago

> I would use this but never knew this could be changed. Same here, but since it affects both the toolbar and the tab bar, I'm inclined to keep the density set to Normal except on small screens.

kevincox 6y ago

That is the most messed up reasoning I have ever heard. "We will remove this feature because we didn't promote it well." It might be a crazy idea, but maybe we could add telemetry and see if people actually use it despite it being hard to discover.

klyrs 6y ago
Yes, that idea is nonsensical. The reason I use FF is because they're fighting tracking and telemetry. Not so they can spy on me.
- spijdar 6y ago
  Firefox has telemetry, it just doesn't gather data on this feature. It does gather: Interaction data includes information about your interactions with Firefox such as number of open tabs and windows, number of webpages visited, number and type of installed Firefox Add-ons and session length, as well as Firefox features offered by Mozilla or our partners such as interaction with Firefox search features and search partner referrals. [0] I don't think telling if the compact UI was enabled is more invasive than this data. [0] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/telemetry-clientid https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/telemetry-clientid
  - klyrs 6y ago
    I opt out. I assume people inclined to tweak their FF settings are more likely to opt out than those who don't. By definition, I guess. So that's gonna spoil whatever statistics you want out of this.
    - nanis 6y ago
      > I opt out. Then there was the issue of "studies"[1]. [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/bl035o/what_are_these_studies_anyway/ https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/bl035o/what_are_th...

wlesieutre 6y ago

I wish gecko/servo were separated enough from Firefox that we had other browser options built around it, with features like native sidebar tabs and compact mode. I've tried to stick with Firefox because I don't love Google owning the hugely dominant browser engine, but Mozilla isn't making it easy for me. Looks increasingly nice across the pond with Edgeium, Vivaldi, Brave, etc. Is servo even still in development? I know bits and pieces of the project have made their way into Firefox, but I'm not sure where that stands after the layoffs last year.

freebuju 6y ago
They fired all the Servo devs. (And) probably increased their CEOs annual salary and bonuses. At this point, Mozilla is just hell-bent on a path to completely destroying whatever's left of Firefox. It being the only non-Blink browser alternative left is no longer a valid excuse.
- dralley 6y ago
  I've contributed to Servo, compiled it, used it, etc. The parts of Servo that were not already merged into Firefox (like Stylo and WebRender) had no clear path to being merged into Firefox within the next few years. I'm really, really sad that they were laid off, but in terms of the future survival of Firefox, it wasn't a catastrophic decision.
- smolder 6y ago
  I've seen this kind of thing happen before, where the underdog in some area develops a kind of self-doubt about the ways they are different. Unique advantages get mistaken for liabilities and then the underdog degrades into a weak immitation.
- jdlshore 6y ago
  >(And) probably increased their CEOs annual salary and bonuses. Please don't post this kind of cynical speculation unless you have something to back it up.
  - deleted 6y ago

lucideer 6y ago

I use this feature as the UI takes a lot of space, and it would be bother me quite noticeably were it removed. However, I understand that maintaining features & options can incur costs, which may not be worthwhile if they're not widely used. So I'd be happy to accept the inconvenience if I knew that I was in a minority. Stunned to see that's not the case, and completely baffled at how contradictory and indicative of incompetence this stated reasoning is.

binwang 6y ago
Same here. I also find this reasoning very disturbing and discouraging, even though I can live without this feature, and will most likely continue using FF after this change lands.
userbinator 6y ago
However, I understand that maintaining features & options can incur costs, Don't be persuaded by that argument unless you have a good idea of what the actual costs are --- especially when the one making the argument is also spending what is almost certainly a lot more on new features that almost no one cares about.

AlexandrB 6y ago

Modern telemetry is a plague on power users. Imagine if Vim made product decisions around which features get the most use.

jsty 6y ago
Every new Vim instance would show instructions on how to :q and a million StackOverflow posts would become redundant
- renewiltord 6y ago
  Neovim startup page looks like this now: NVIM v0.4.3 Nvim is open source and freely distributable https://neovim.io/#chat type :help nvim<Enter> if you are new! type :checkhealth<Enter> to optimize Nvim type :q<Enter> to exit type :help<Enter> for help Become a registered Vim user! type :help register<Enter> for information I imagine vim is similar
  - deathanatos 6y ago
    It is. You can also hit ^C, and it will prompt you with instructions.
- andrewzah 6y ago
  Vim (at least v8.1.1401) already does that. type :q<Enter> to exit type :help<Enter> or <F1> for on-line help type :help version8<Enter> for version info As the sibling comment noted, neovim also has something similar.

Macha 6y ago

Also the touch scale, also only discoverable through that same UI widget, is not up for removal.

olejorgenb 6y ago
Yes and if touch mode remains a simple "x times more padding" variant (like it's today) it's a bit hard to see how ditching compact mode would save much code complexity...

mmcdermott 6y ago

Same here. I didn't know this was in Firefox, saw this article, went and tried it. I think I'll leave it that way (until the feature goes away) because I prefer leaving space for content. I use the keyboard to focus on the url bar anyway, so the smaller size doesn't hurt me.

danjac 6y ago

"Nobody visited the restaurant that we decided to build in the middle of nowhere and never advertised, so obviously it failed and we closed it down."

kilburn 6y ago
Correction: "We built a restaurant in the middle of nowhere and never advertised it. We don't have the numbers but it seems fair to assume that nobody goes there so we'll be closing it down." The important missing part in your analogy is that they don't even know if people use it or not!
- postalrat 6y ago
  Even if they knew how many people are using it they still wouldn't know if more people wanted to use it.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

JaggedJax 6y ago

It seems no one really read through the bugzilla ticket. Three days ago after this got attention Mozilla both added telemetry to collect usage stats [1] and plan to run an experiment with the new proton UI [2] to determine what density users prefer and make discovery easier. This is not yet finalized/decided and a great big thanks to the Firefox devs for listening to the feedback and collecting real information before making a final decision. [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1698100 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1698100 [2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1698171 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1698171

KallDrexx 6y ago
Thanks for this. I didn't read the comments so that's good to know :)

FounderBurr 6y ago

This is the exact same language they used to justify removing RSS support so they could push their Pocket(tm) product. Glad I left, won’t be back.