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"It should go without saying that everyone should be able to freely choose the operating system to run on their personal computers" I think this is an antiquat

"It should go without saying that everyone should be able to freely choose the operating system to run on their personal computers" I think this is an antiquated idea that presupposes that the definition of the product you are buying from a company is a "general purpose computing device". The overwhelming majority of users of devices just want the value that a product maker offers. We're now completely surrounded by devices that offer no such freedoms, and we're completely reliant on networked services where we also have no choice in the matter. Should I be able to sue google for including chrome os on chromebooks? Apple for preinstalling osx? Android? Ios? What about the os for my cars' display, or my smart tv? This feels like trying to force a company to offer a product that somebody wishes they offered.

amelius 6y ago
> The overwhelming majority of users of devices just want the value that a product maker offers. Yes, because they don't know any better. If all users knew how vendor lock-in affected the entire OX (ownership experience) in all its aspects, then perhaps they would choose differently.
randrews 6y ago
When did we become okay with people selling something other than a general-purpose computer and calling it a "computer?"
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  When we let regular people buy computers. Only enthusiasts want computers they tinker around with, the vast majority of consumers just want it to work. They won't be installing alternative operating systems, they want to push a button and get to work/play/etc.
  - randrews 6y ago
    Then call it a phone, or a console, or something. Words have meanings and if you sell something as a "computer" then the buyer can expect to be able to do general-purpose computation on it.
    - wernercd 6y ago
      but it's not simply a "phone" anymore... it's a super computer that happens to make phone calls. And what about making phone calls from computers now? I guess we shouldn't call THAT a computer anymore because it's used to make phone calls? It's a desk-phone?
    - Google234 6y ago
      You can still do general propose computing though. There’s millions of applications and you can make your own work a programming language of your choice.
    - rootusrootus 6y ago
      This battle gets fought and lost repeatedly. Words mean what the majority want them to mean. Hacker used to mean programmer, but not any more. Computer means that thing you sit down at with a keyboard, mouse, and big screen, and do word processing/e-mail/etc with. Saying that the only real 'computers' are generic beige boxes that can run any old OS is just gatekeeping, and basically irrelevant. That's not what the word computer means to most people.
      - randrews 6y ago
        "I'd like to buy a drill." "Here you go!" "This is... A board with a hole in it? I want a drill." "This is better for regular people: the hole already exists, you can screw things right to it." "Yes, but I want to drill several holes in my wall. I don't want a brand new board with a single hole, I want a drill to make holes." "Most people, when they say they want a drill, really actually mean they want a hole. So we call these hole-boards drills now." "But it's not what it means. I want an actual drill." "Ugh, why all the gatekeeping, it's irrelevant, just buy this 'drill.'"
wtallis 6y ago
> Should I be able to sue google for including chrome os on chromebooks? Apple for preinstalling osx? Android? Ios? What about the os for my cars' display, or my smart tv? All of those examples have the hardware manufacturer bundling their own software, as opposed to tying a third-party software product that to the sale of the hardware. And none of those companies have quite the history that Microsoft does with illegal tying. So there's plenty of room to draw a line that allows Chrome OS and iOS but requires Lenovo to make Windows optional. (I'm not saying that's the most sensible place to draw the line, just that there are clear distinctions to be made here.)
yurielt 6y ago
> Should I be able to sue google for including chrome os on chromebooks? Apple for preinstalling osx? Android? Ios? What about the os for my cars' display, or my smart tv? Yes
- wernercd 6y ago
  > Yes You can sue anyone for anything... the question is what are you suing the company for? Providing a product in a way you disagree with?

amelius 6y ago

> The overwhelming majority of users of devices just want the value that a product maker offers. Yes, because they don't know any better. If all users knew how vendor lock-in affected the entire OX (ownership experience) in all its aspects, then perhaps they would choose differently.

randrews 6y ago

When did we become okay with people selling something other than a general-purpose computer and calling it a "computer?"

rootusrootus 6y ago
When we let regular people buy computers. Only enthusiasts want computers they tinker around with, the vast majority of consumers just want it to work. They won't be installing alternative operating systems, they want to push a button and get to work/play/etc.
- randrews 6y ago
  Then call it a phone, or a console, or something. Words have meanings and if you sell something as a "computer" then the buyer can expect to be able to do general-purpose computation on it.
  - wernercd 6y ago
    but it's not simply a "phone" anymore... it's a super computer that happens to make phone calls. And what about making phone calls from computers now? I guess we shouldn't call THAT a computer anymore because it's used to make phone calls? It's a desk-phone?
  - Google234 6y ago
    You can still do general propose computing though. There’s millions of applications and you can make your own work a programming language of your choice.
  - rootusrootus 6y ago
    This battle gets fought and lost repeatedly. Words mean what the majority want them to mean. Hacker used to mean programmer, but not any more. Computer means that thing you sit down at with a keyboard, mouse, and big screen, and do word processing/e-mail/etc with. Saying that the only real 'computers' are generic beige boxes that can run any old OS is just gatekeeping, and basically irrelevant. That's not what the word computer means to most people.
    - randrews 6y ago
      "I'd like to buy a drill." "Here you go!" "This is... A board with a hole in it? I want a drill." "This is better for regular people: the hole already exists, you can screw things right to it." "Yes, but I want to drill several holes in my wall. I don't want a brand new board with a single hole, I want a drill to make holes." "Most people, when they say they want a drill, really actually mean they want a hole. So we call these hole-boards drills now." "But it's not what it means. I want an actual drill." "Ugh, why all the gatekeeping, it's irrelevant, just buy this 'drill.'"

wtallis 6y ago

> Should I be able to sue google for including chrome os on chromebooks? Apple for preinstalling osx? Android? Ios? What about the os for my cars' display, or my smart tv? All of those examples have the hardware manufacturer bundling their own software, as opposed to tying a third-party software product that to the sale of the hardware. And none of those companies have quite the history that Microsoft does with illegal tying. So there's plenty of room to draw a line that allows Chrome OS and iOS but requires Lenovo to make Windows optional. (I'm not saying that's the most sensible place to draw the line, just that there are clear distinctions to be made here.)

yurielt 6y ago

> Should I be able to sue google for including chrome os on chromebooks? Apple for preinstalling osx? Android? Ios? What about the os for my cars' display, or my smart tv? Yes

wernercd 6y ago
> Yes You can sue anyone for anything... the question is what are you suing the company for? Providing a product in a way you disagree with?